The Celts

[CrazyG]

Pictish warriors would be really strong even if they weren't available at mining. Also, you can still build warriors if you don't get bronze working for a cheap unit to gift CS

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Well Pictish Warriors don't get a bonus vs Mounted. So I feel they need to come earlier before Horsemen take the Field.

 

[Zanteogo]

I have a suggestion to make the Celts more interesting..

One very unique thing about the Celts is that they can pick a starting belief that no other civ has access too. It's pretty neat. However, flawed is a few aspects.

The first, is that if you're playing the Celts you need to play the early war game. You get your UU early and if you want to get full use of it you need to harass your neighbours. This means certain beliefs that favour early war will just have more value.
The second is that though very interesting to have all these beliefs that no one else can have access too, it's a brief thing. You see them, pick one and that's it.

My suggestion is to allow the Celts to have access to these beliefs at every decision level of their religion. Allow them to pick the regular ones too perhaps, but leave their unique ones open for the entire game.

edit: another small thing, there is a text error with the Celt belief that adds various bonus when you win a battle. (the last word is missing)

 

[Gazebo]

I have a suggestion to make the Celts more interesting..

One very unique thing about the Celts is that they can pick a starting belief that no other civ has access too. It's pretty neat. However, flawed is a few aspects.

The first, is that if you playing the Celts you need to play the early war game. You get your UU early and if you want to get full use of it you need to harass your neighbours. This means certain beliefs that favour early war will just have more value.
The second is that though very interesting to have all these beliefs that no one else can have access too, it's a brief thing. You see them, pick one and that's it.

My suggestion is to allow the Celts to have access to these beliefs at every decision level of their religion. Allow them to pick the regular ones too perhaps, but leave their unique ones open for the entire game.

edit: another small thing, there is a text error with the Celt belief that adds various bonus when you win a battle. (the last word is missing)

Way, way too strong. They're overtuned pantheons because you get just one per game.

G

 

[Zanteogo]

Way, way too strong. They're overtuned pantheons because you get just one per game.

G

I don't think they are that much better than the majority of non-pantheons (though they are mostly better than other pantheons)
Perhaps added them to the Celtic reformation option only then?

 

[PapaRockett]

Can we allow The Celts to spread religion to other civs? It's nice being able to reform.

 

[Gazebo]

Can we allow The Celts to spread religion to other civs? It's nice being able to reform.

You can. Manually with missionaries. But not naturally. That's the point of the ua.

 

[PapaRockett]

You can. Manually with missionaries. But not naturally. That's the point of the ua.

Oh, we can use missionaries? I recall not having the option to do so. I may have been mistaken though. Good to know!

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Not having your Cities help spread your Religion just makes it easier for another player, especially a Neighbor, to convert Cities you wanted to Convert and keep you from Converting them. It often feels like a lost cause.

Well, even if you do get the St. Basil, your Holy Sites won't get the +5 X from your Founder. Combined with the difficulty with converting your Neighbors, it can be a lot harder to get Reformation without the St. Basil.

 

[PapaRockett]

Not having your Cities help spread your Religion just makes it easier for another player, especially a Neighbor, to convert Cities you wanted to Convert and keep you from Converting them. It often feels like a lost cause.

Well, even if you do get the St. Basil, your Holy Sites won't get the +5 X from your Founder. Combined with the difficulty with converting your Neighbors, it can be a lot harder to get Reformation without the St. Basil.

One positive about the UA is that you don't give the other civs your awesome religious bonuses

 

[ElliotS]

Yeah I think it's both a blessing and a curse. I like the nuance.

 

[CrazyG]

I feel like Epona the Great Mare (12 food, culture, and science on border expansion) is too strong. You can run away like crazy with it, and the only other pantheon that sort of competes would be the forest/jungle buff

 

[ElliotS]

I feel like Epona the Great Mare (12 food, culture, and science on border expansion) is too strong. You can run away like crazy with it, and the only other pantheon that sort of competes would be the forest/jungle buff

I'd like to see the following changes:
Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills. +1 from barracks, armory, walls and castle.
Epona, the Great Mare: +10 , +10 , and +10 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +100% increase to Ranged Combat Strength of Cities, +25% Growth, and +1 in every City, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +3 , +3, and +3 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era. +1 from World Wonders.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. Gain and when you complete an external trade route.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +2 , +2 +2, and +2 in every City. No from isolation.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +4 in coastal Cities.+1 and from fishing boats.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps.

My reasoning is that unless you get an exceptional start, the Celts need culture from their pantheon. I think pantheons without culture would need to be OP to be worth it for the celts.

I think this would leave every pantheon around the same strength as Dagda and Cernunnos, which I consider the correct level for Celts.

Did I make one too strong? Thoughts?

 

[CrazyG]

I'd like to see the following changes:
Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills. +1 from barracks, armory, walls and castle.
Epona, the Great Mare: +10 , +10 , and +10 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +100% increase to Ranged Combat Strength of Cities, +25% Growth, and +1 in every City, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +3 , +3, and +3 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era. +1 from World Wonders.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. Gain and when you complete an external trade route.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +2 , +2 +2, and +2 in every City. No from isolation.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +4 in coastal Cities.+1 and from fishing boats.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps.

My reasoning is that unless you get an exceptional start, the Celts need culture from their pantheon. I think pantheons without culture would need to be OP to be worth it for the celts.

I think this would leave every pantheon around the same strength as Dagda and Cernunnos, which I consider the correct level for Celts.

Did I make one too strong? Thoughts?

I don't think the issue is certain pantheons lacking culture, so much as its certain pantheons working so much better with Authority, and you really want authority because pictish warriors.

I think those changes to Epona, Lugh, and Ogma could work. The others I'm not sure, partially because I lack experience, but also I just don't see when I'll pick them. Even with era scaling Bran seems really weak

 

[ElliotS]

I don't think the issue is certain pantheons lacking culture, so much as its certain pantheons working so much better with Authority, and you really want authority because pictish warriors.

I think those changes to Epona, Lugh, and Ogma could work. The others I'm not sure, partially because I lack experience, but also I just don't see when I'll pick them. Even with era scaling Bran seems really weak

Bran seems insanely hard to quantify. 25% growth seems really good, and +100% city RCS seems like it could be awesome sometimes.

Maybe add "Units heal +10 HP in friendly territory?" to make it a solid defensive pantheon?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I always go Dagda myself. It's just that a superior God-King is obviously preferable to anything else when your uniques make religion very easy to get, and at 4 followers it becomes better than the alternatives almost instantly.

 

[CrazyG]

Bran seems insanely hard to quantify. 25% growth seems really good, and +100% city RCS seems like it could be awesome sometimes.

Maybe add "Units heal +10 HP in friendly territory?" to make it a solid defensive pantheon?

For comparison, Goddess of Fertility gives +15% growth, and 2 food/2 faith in every city once your buildings are built.

I always go Dagda myself. It's just that a superior God-King is obviously preferable to anything else when your uniques make religion very easy to get, and at 4 followers it becomes better than the alternatives almost instantly.

Dagda is really good, and it seems to clearly outclass Ogma to me.

 

[ElliotS]

For comparison, Goddess of Fertility gives +15% growth, and 2 food/2 faith in every city once your buildings are built.

Yeah, but I never pick that either.

 

[CrazyG]

Yeah, but I never pick that either.

You don't need to play with it, the numbers of Bran vs Fertility show Bran is better but not that much better. 25% growth (not food) really isn't that much

It means that the Celtic UA + Pantheon together aren't that much stronger than just a regular pantheon, when using Bran. More importantly its rather weak compared to Epona or Dagda.

 

[ElliotS]

So:
Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills. +15 when pillaging.
Epona, the Great Mare: +10 , +10 , and +10 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +10 HP Healed in friendly territory, +25% Growth, and +1 from barracks, armory, walls and castle.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +3 , +3, and +3 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era. +1 from World Wonders.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. Gain and when you complete an external trade route.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +2 , +2 +2, and +2 in every City. No from isolation.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +4 in coastal Cities.+1 and from fishing boats.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps.

Thoughts?