The Celts

[ElliotS]

Maybe 50 bonus culture for bullying a CS, available at your second social policy, it just too much. Your third policy only costs 126, I regularly hit my third policy within 5 turns of my second. To be frank, I find civs without early game uniques are garbage as Authority, compared to Zulu or anyone with a spearmen UU. A game earlier this week I started near 2 culture CS and completed Authority on turn 58

So maybe the crazy snowballs are less the pantheons are more crazy tribute shenanigans? I think that a large part of my success with Celts is definitely that they're able to tribute ridiculously well, but so are greeks, zulu and persia.

 

[CrazyG]

So maybe the crazy snowballs are less the pantheons are more crazy tribute shenanigans? I think that a large part of my success with Celts is definitely that they're able to tribute ridiculously well, but so are greeks, zulu and persia.

The Celts definitely get tribute earlier. Typically you need 3 units to get tribute and the Celts can get a 3rd pictish warrior out much faster because they come at mining. You also can skip building a shrine as the Celts, since your pantheon cannot be stolen and your army earns faith.

I think those civs are plenty strong without all that early culture, I'd love to try playing them as progress but I can never bring myself to pass up that 50 culture for tributing. Another idea would be to change the culture for tributing CS to a global yield, rather than in your capital. This way it doesn't cause border growth or yields from borders growing (this would do a lot to cause Epona's snowball to calm down).

 

[ElliotS]

Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1CS = 1 yield scaling with gamespeed). +2 from Barracks, Armories and Citadels.
Epona, the Great Mare: +12 , +12 , and +12 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +10 HP Healed in friendly territory, +25% Growth, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 , +2 , and +2 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era, and +2 from Markets.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities. (No change)
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital. + equal to science per turn when you discover a tech.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold per Market and City Connection.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 from Farms. +1 from Pastures. +1 from Mines. +1 from Lumber Mills. +1 from quarries.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +3 in coastal Cities.+1 and from fishing boats and Lighthouses.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps and + 1 , & from plantations.

and a Nerf:
Pictish warriors unlock at Bronze Working. (not mining.)

I think this balanced out all the pantheons and removes the bigger reason for them going crazy. (imo) Now that you actually need 2 techs for Pictish Warriors AIs can defend better, tribute is harder (because it's relative) and you have less of a tech advantage. (Basically getting 2 techs for 1at the start.)

I think all of these proposed pantheons are very similar in power level, and the nerf will affect the celts over-all quite a bit.

 

[CrazyG]

Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 , +2 , and +2 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era, and +2 from Markets.

I thought people agreed not to have the food on markets? Lugh strikes me as a really good option, I know you have advocated buffing others like Morrigan because of their seeming low power level relative to Lugh, but Lugh could still be the issue.

Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +3 in coastal Cities.+1 and from fishing boats and Lighthouses.

I still don't think that culture or science is necessary. If you want this to be stronger than it currently is, just bring it up to 4 , , and . What makes it interesting is you get crazy city development but no bonus culture or science. This version also makes taking this on non-fishing luxuries feel bad.

Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 from Farms. +1 from Pastures. +1 from Mines. +1 from Lumber Mills. +1 from quarries

I don't like the concept of a pantheon buffing farms on mines on tiles without resources.

Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 in every city, scaling with era. +1 and +1 from any tile with an improved resource.

I'd rather buff resources than just generic farms and mines

 

[ElliotS]

I thought people agreed not to have the food on markets? Lugh strikes me as a really good option, I know you have advocated buffing others like Morrigan because of their seeming low power level relative to Lugh, but Lugh could still be the issue.

You've mentioned yourself thatt he food isn't an issue with authority. I think celts could be a great progress civ, and the food on markets makes it better for progress. I think the food on markets would be relatively negligible for Authority who already will be at 2-3 pop very quickly with Tribute + Imperium combo, but essential to Progress builds and good for tradition too.

I'm okay with your reasoning for Rhiannon and Mannanan, so I'll go with them. I think Mannanan could be a problem in the same sense as current Lugh, but the yield types are worse so probably not.

Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1CS = 1 yield scaling with gamespeed). +2 from Barracks, Armories and Citadels.
Epona, the Great Mare: +12 , +12 , and +12 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +10 HP Healed in friendly territory, +25% Growth, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 , +2 , and +2 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era, and +2 from Markets.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities. (No change)
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital. + equal to science per turn when you discover a tech.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold per Market and City Connection.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 in every city, scaling with era. +1 and +1 from any tile with an improved resource.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +4 , +4 , and +4 in coastal Cities.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps and + 1 , & from plantations.

and a Nerf:
Pictish warriors unlock at Bronze Working. (not mining.)

Is this a relatively agreeable changelog, or does anyone have more commentary?

 

[CrazyG]

You've mentioned yourself thatt he food isn't an issue with authority. I think celts could be a great progress civ, and the food on markets makes it better for progress. I think the food on markets would be relatively negligible for Authority who already will be at 2-3 pop very quickly with Tribute + Imperium combo, but essential to Progress builds and good for tradition too.

Its not like working a single 0 food citizen kills growth for progress, you still have 3 food per city, bonus food, and you could run food trade routes. Even at only half of what it does now, Lugh is a serious science and culture steroid, its okay for it to have a weakness

 

[ElliotS]

I disagree, but I'll cede the change to you in the interest of progress.

Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1CS = 1 yield scaling with gamespeed). +2 from Barracks, Armories and Citadels.
Epona, the Great Mare: +12 , +12 , and +12 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +10 HP Healed in friendly territory, +25% Growth, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 , +2 , and +2 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities. (No change)
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital. + equal to science per turn when you discover a tech.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold per Market and City Connection.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 in every city, scaling with era. +1 and +1 from any tile with an improved resource.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +4 , +4 , and +4 in coastal Cities.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps and + 1 , & from plantations.

and a Nerf:
Pictish warriors unlock at Bronze Working. (not mining.)

How is this?

 

[PapaRockett]

I disagree, but I'll cede the change to you in the interest of progress.

Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1CS = 1 yield scaling with gamespeed). +2 from Barracks, Armories and Citadels.
Epona, the Great Mare: +12 , +12 , and +12 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +10 HP Healed in friendly territory, +25% Growth, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 , +2 , and +2 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities. (No change)
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital. + equal to science per turn when you discover a tech.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold per Market and City Connection.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 in every city, scaling with era. +1 and +1 from any tile with an improved resource.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +4 , +4 , and +4 in coastal Cities.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps and + 1 , & from plantations.

and a Nerf:
Pictish warriors unlock at Bronze Working. (not mining.)

How is this?

I feel like Coastal city one could do with some buff to fishing boats (maybe even +1 gold or +1 production)?

Other than that I really like the Pictish Warrior moving to bronze working.

 

[ElliotS]

I feel like Coastal city one could do with some buff to fishing boats (maybe even +1 gold or +1 production)?

Other than that I really like the Pictish Warrior moving to bronze working.

I feel similarly. Let me make a strawpoll for that policy to see what people want:
Here's the link.

To be clear, no changes is the currently implemented +3 , +3 and +4 .

If the opinion is unclear I'll make more polls.

 

[bigcat88]

Pictish Warrior on bronze working will be to weak comparing to hoplite or immortal.
Voted.

 

[PapaRockett]

Pictish Warrior on bronze working will be to weak comparing to hoplite or immortal.
Voted.

Lower in CS maybe but it DOES give you faith upon kill.

Infact, I wonder if it provides enough time to actually found a religion if it's in Bronze Working.

 

[CrazyG]

If you move pictish warriors to bronze working they should get the bonus against mounted back. I don't think its necessary though.

Its hard to balance to a fine degree, given that G is about to adjust early policy costs. I suggest we use the most recent list form ElliotS as a starting point to further explore balance. Its definitely an improvement, and its not like we need to fix all 10 at once

 

[ElliotS]

Well the current poll was split, so let's do this. First we'll see if it should add a bonus to fishing boats, then we'll consider the yields if people think it should.

First Poll.

Second Poll.

Please vote in both, even if you don't want it to buff boats. Consider it possible damage control. Thank you.

 

[randomnub]

You constantly overbuff your suggestions. So much of this thread is spent just trying to chill out some of those overbuffs.

This; tone down Epona, slighty buff Oghma, and leave this top tier civ alone. I think Pictish don't deserve an immediate change either if tribute yelds are balanced as suggested elsewhere.

 

[Funak]

Think the main balancing flaw going on here is that you're just making all of them way too similar. If they all grant about the same amount of the same yields, then there's no point having a choice.

 

[tu_79]

Think the main balancing flaw going on here is that you're just making all of them way too similar. If they all grant about the same amount of the same yields, then there's no point having a choice.

I see what you're saying.
Some of them are focused in one yield type, like the learned and the silver handed, but the rest is just a matter of getting more yields the more successful is your strategy.

 

[ElliotS]

This; tone down Epona, slighty buff Oghma, and leave this top tier civ alone. I think Pictish don't deserve an immediate change either if tribute yelds are balanced as suggested elsewhere.

Dude, that leaves Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty, Nuada, the Silver-Handed King, Bran, the Sleeping Guardian and Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife as nearly unpickable. Meanwhile it also leaves Lugh as OP.

I'm all for not touching things that are fine, but the balance is whack.

If you think these are overbuffed can you seriously tell me any of these proposed new ones are better than Dagda, let alone the actual OP ones like Eponia or Lugh?

The pictish change is definitely dependent on tribute yields. I think them being available so early is really good, possibly OP. It contributes a lot to the Celts success, even if they don't tribute with them.

Think the main balancing flaw going on here is that you're just making all of them way too similar. If they all grant about the same amount of the same yields, then there's no point having a choice.

The problem is that we need to use existing religious mechanics. At that point the choices become more homogenis.

The problem with what you're saying is that if you have wildly different amounts of different yields you have some clear choices. I think these are pretty unique given the constraints and the fact that I think all of the pantheons should be viable choices.

If you have ideas please post them, but the current state of things is two OP pantheons, a few balanced/situational ones and a few no one should ever choose ever.

That's not healthy.

Infact, I wonder if it provides enough time to actually found a religion if it's in Bronze Working.

They get 3 faith per city with a pantheon, which is probably enough to found on it's own. Also remember that prophet costs were increased to make late-bloomers better. That means you'll have plenty of time.

 

[randomnub]

Dude, your solution to fix(?) a top tier civ that has a couple of outstanding pantheons is to buff everything else.

 

[CrazyG]

Here is my suggestion. Designed to change only what needs to be changed. Parts in red are changes relative to the existing versions

No changes to these 3
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +4 in coastal Cities
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps


Nerfs to these 2
Epona, the Great Mare: +10,, and when your Borders expand, scaling with Era
Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 , +2 , and +2 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era.

(mostly small) Buffs to these 4
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +100% city attack damage, +25% Growth, and +8 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1 yield per CS, currently its 1 yield per 2 CS)
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold from City Connections
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital

Rhiannon (and only Rhiannon) needs a total rework. My suggestion is in red, but I'd love to hear some fresh ideas
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 in every city, scaling with era. +1 and +1 from any tile with an improved resource

Spoiler CondensedList :

Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +4 in coastal Cities
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps
Epona, the Great Mare: +10,, and when your Borders expand, scaling with Era
Lugh, the Skilled One: +2 , +2 , and +2 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +100% city attack damage, +25% Growth, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1 yield per CS, currently its 1 yield per 2 CS)
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold from City Connections
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 in every city, scaling with era. +1 and +1 from any tile with an improved resource

Thoughts?

 

[FoxOfWar]

I don't really have much of opinion on individual balance(don't really play enough Celts to have constructive thought here), but I think it'd be better to veer on the stronger side, as the unique pantheons (for the most part, Pictish Warriors are pretty strong too) make or break Celts' game. Buff whatever is deemed weaker rather than nerf the strong outliers.