The Celts

[CrazyG]

So 22 turns for "Extra tiles when a city is founded and a bonus to defend in owned territory."? Sounds like a good deal.

88 > 66. the Shoshone (on a very good start) are 22 turns ahead of the Celts (on a very bad start), not the other way around. Me thinks you are reading what you want to read

G changed it to 3/3/3 and upped additional culture/science pnealty per city. That additional per city penalty will help balance Lugh out (much more than just higher policy costs will). Were I gambling man, I would still place my bet on too strong, but its worth playing first

 

[crushboss]

The Celts are always in last place in all the games I've played. The other civs bounce around a bit due to flavors and other factors but the Celts never do well. I've never played the Celts, just AI control. They could use some love.

 

[infidel88]

The Celts are always in last place in all the games I've played. The other civs bounce around a bit due to flavors and other factors but the Celts never do well. I've never played the Celts, just AI control. They could use some love.

Because with pantheons and per city reduced, Celts are not really that juicy now. Their UB is unique pantheon and +2. Most of unique pantheons scale really bad and even if they give you quick head start, they are not really snowbally and by medieval, they are not really that good. +2 at Reneissance (again, not scalable) is laughable, just like Mannanan or Lugh. They rely greatly on Pictish Warriors and early war, but their great unique abilities also disappear with gunpowder. Human Celts can still be great, AI Celts are way too peaceful early on.

 

[doublex55]

Yup. I played against Celts as Britain on immortal and they choose to friend me early on despite having by far the largest military.

 

[Owlbebach]

I also think that Celts did not deserve this nerf, i never saw them as a runaway in any of my games over the past months. Celts found religion really early, but thats it, they do not have any other bonuses. Any other strong civ like Germany or Austria or Songai also can found religion with the right pantheon but they have quite a lot of other bonuses and Celts do not. Also Celts are quite good in human hand because human is smart enough to delay founding religion in order to accumulate more faith for couple of missionaries, while AI is not

 

[vuko]

Played last week my first emperor game. Continents plus, large.

Celts were from the beginning to the end the strongest and most advanced faction. Leading in technology against babylon by at least 10-20% all the time.

They won by completing the space project at around turn 340. They even passed the space sanctions themselves just to show off.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I would love it if the celts could keep their pantheon regardless of whether they found a religion.

 

[Owlbebach]

I would love it if the celts could keep their pantheon regardless of whether they found a religion.

That was discussed many times, and unfortunately it is not possible to code

 

[CrazyG]

I've seen the AI Celts miss religion like 5 times in a row, which means that she basically doesn't have a UA (in fact its a huge negative if you don't get a religion), alongside an underwhelming UB and a UU whose purpose was to generate faith.

I think the Celts should go back to 3 faith per city, but half the faith the pictish warriors get for kills. This would push her away from being a hyper-aggressive snowballing civ (which humans players can play well, but the AI cannot) towards more balanced civ that can take different policy trees.

 

[Owlbebach]

I've seen the AI Celts miss religion like 5 times in a row, which means that she basically doesn't have a UA (in fact its a huge negative if you don't get a religion), alongside an underwhelming UB and a UU whose purpose was to generate faith.

I think the Celts should go back to 3 faith per city, but half the faith the pictish warriors get for kills. This would push her away from being a hyper-aggressive snowballing civ (which humans players can play well, but the AI cannot) towards more balanced civ that can take different policy trees.

I think she should go back to 3 faith per city and Pictish Warriors should stay as is. I do not see any problem with them. Thing is that
1) Celtish patheon does not scale at all. They have good faith output early on, but by the time you rich 2nd half of medeival it becomes low-faith pantheon.
2) Their cities do not generate pressure and you need to spend your faith to comvert your own cities, it is usually 2 missionaries at least, cause you need that bonus faith from pantheon, which you loose when when you found
3) Religious buildings and Scripture does not increase pressure of you religion from your own cities!
4) Early religion is the only bonus Celts have, so it should be strong! Not to mention that if you spread your religion to your neighbours - they will have a use of your pantheon too.
5) Pictish warriors become bad once horseman is in place, because they are worse than spearmen against them. You usually have like 30 turns to use them, thats a very small timing window

 

[CrazyG]

2) Their cities do not generate pressure and you need to spend your faith to comvert your own cities, it is usually 2 missionaries at least, cause you need that bonus faith from pantheon, which you loose when when you found

I think you do get pressure from your own cities. I always wait a couple turns with my prophet before founding so I can skip the no faith thing. Its awkward and hurts AI more than humans. If its possible to change this mechanic so that you get 3 faith in any city its probably a good move. Its not like having cities following a religion other than your majority is a thing that happens to the Celts

 

[Owlbebach]

I think you do get pressure from your own cities. I always wait a couple turns with my prophet before founding so I can skip the no faith thing. Its awkward and hurts AI more than humans. If its possible to change this mechanic so that you get 3 faith in any city its probably a good move. Its not like having cities following a religion other than your majority is a thing that happens to the Celts

Yes, your own cities generate pressure within your empire, but you still want to convert your own cities asap because you need faith, so thats useless anyway (otherwise you only have +2 from Shrines, and this is definetely not enough to spread and enchance). I always delay founding too. Problem is that without pressure to foreign cities you can spread only with missionaries, buildings and scripture does not help. In one of my games i had 2 neighbours who also founded religion and despite all my efforts i could not spread my religion to any other civ. Yes this is deity, but this is not right, cause Celts are religious civ, they must have strong religion

 

[Gokudo01]

Yes celt is a religious civ but you ve got upside and downside. Special pantheons are crazy powerful and because you are alone to pick, you can always get the right one for your strategy or situation something that nobody else can do except ghandi which has got "strangely" a big dowside as a religious civ.

 

[infidel88]

After founder chnges, biggest advantage of religion is spreading it. You don't want to spread religion as Celts, as pantheon is your UA, so spreading addition UA to AI is somewhat silly. I love when I start next to Celts. I don't even bother with religion then and hope for them to found, as I know that sooner or later i'll just ROLFstomp them (conquest became most fun and easiest way of expansion) and get that juicy pantheon.

 

[Owlbebach]

You don't want to spread religion as Celts, as pantheon is your UA, so spreading addition UA to AI is somewhat silly.

You DO want to spread with Celts. Otherwise your Founder if crap and you do not have Reformation. No, you do not build Cathedral of St.Basil if you play high difficulty. Pantheons are strong, but not enough to carry you through the whole game.

 

[ElliotS]

Celts founded in my current game. I just can't remember the last time they've done well.

This time they were already falling behind when they and Russia thought I was vulnerable and attacked me in early medieval. I am Spain with Zealotry and spammed Conquistadors until Celts were genocided and Russia was a tin vassal of mine.

I think Celts biggest weakness is reformation. Their UB should allow them to reform if they haven't already, so they don't need to spread or hyper-expand.

 

[infidel88]

You DO want to spread with Celts. Otherwise your Founder if crap and you do not have Reformation. No, you do not build Cathedral of St.Basil if you play high difficulty. Pantheons are strong, but not enough to carry you through the whole game.

Not if you conquer
Of course you always want to spread, here you just have tough nut to crack, as you give ridiculously strong pantheon to your neighbors at the expense of reformation. It's like giving your UA to everyone at expense of reformation, which usually isn't that good.

 

[Funak]

I'm always kinda split on the Celts. If the idea is that you should never spread your religion to anyone (to keep the benefit of the pantheon for yourself) then they just feel awful. Most, if not all founders are based around spreading, reformation almost requires spreading not to mention you're losing out on all the other benefits from spreading, like making friends getting extra tourism and getting extra votes.

If the idea is that they're supposed to spread their religion a bit, then I'm not sure why I've never seen an AI do that, ever.

 

[Gokudo01]

I think I know now why you have issue with spreading : you are playing peaceful celt.
Which is something I fail to understand: you get insane super early unit, why don't you play on your power-spike ? you don't need to conquer the world but one or two neighbour is enough to reform.

so they don't need to spread or hyper-expand.

I don't see why it's an issue, Pictish warrior is so strong early on, it's not that hard to destroy one of your neighbour and then snowball.

 

[Funak]

I think I know now why you have issue with spreading : you are playing peaceful celt.
Which is something I fail to understand: you get insane super early unit, why don't you play on your power-spike ? you don't need to conquer the world but one or two neighbour is enough to reform.



I don't see why it's an issue, Pictish warrior is so strong early on, it's not that hard to destroy one of your neighbour and then snowball.

Have you actually tried this out? Because honestly it sounds kinda like a stretch to knock out two neighbors and still manage to found a religion.

I'm also not exactly sure how a spearman with +2 CS and a weakness to horsemen is going to actually capture cities.