The Celts

[kenneth1221]

Went up against an AI Celts in a game I just played (with a few modmods, so may not be base game issue.) AI Boudicca took Pagodas (+1 all yields for all religions with at least 1 follower in the city) and Syncretism (+1 faith, science, production for every 2 followers of other religions in owned cities.)

This, of course, is a bit of a terrible strategy for a Civ that pretty much will never end have other religions in its cities (but it made their Holy City a very juicy production city.)

 

[crdvis16]

Went up against an AI Celts in a game I just played (with a few modmods, so may not be base game issue.) AI Boudicca took Pagodas (+1 all yields for all religions with at least 1 follower in the city) and Syncretism (+1 faith, science, production for every 2 followers of other religions in owned cities.)

This, of course, is a bit of a terrible strategy for a Civ that pretty much will never end have other religions in its cities (but it made their Holy City a very juicy production city.)

They can have missionaries used on them, but yeah they are certainly less likely to have foreign religions in their cities. The AI should probably not even consider those beliefs when playing certain civs.

 

[hokath]

I was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss the Celt pantheon balance? I played them last game and it was hard to see when certain of them should be taken. I include them in the spoiler for reference. Many of the ones that look good scale: Bran, Dagda, Epona, and Morrigan. Then there are some that scale but its not very convincing to me: Nuada and Ogma. Then there are ones that don't scale really Rhiannon, Cernunnos, Mannanan and Lugh.

I ended up taking Cernunnos because I had maybe 20 jungle tiles in range of the capital. This might still have been wrong given that I expanded a lot and it wasn't great for my other cities, not sure. At any rate, it seemed to me like Rhiannon was never going to compete with Lugh in raw yields, and that Lugh would soon be outscaled by Dagda. As such, when would you really ever take them?

Anyone have commentry on this?

Spoiler :

Bran, the Sleeping Guardian
+100% increase to Ranged Combat Strength , +25% Growth, and +8 Culture when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era.
+4 Faith from Ceilidh Hall.

Cernunnos, the Horned Stag
+1 Food and Gold from Forests, +1Production and Science from Jungles. +1 from camps.
+2 Culture from Ceilidh Hall.

Dagda, the All-Father
+1 Culture, Gold, Science for every
4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
+2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.

Epona, the Great Mare
Receive +10Science, Culture, and Food when
your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
+4 Food from Ceilidh Hall.

Lugh, the Skilled One
+3 Culture, Science, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist.
+3 Production from Ceilidh Hall.

Mannanan, Son of the Sea
+3 Food, +3 Production, and +4 Gold in coastal Cities.
+2 Great Admiral Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife
Earn Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points
if you kill a unit.
+2 Great General Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 Culture for every 10 Gold per turn,
+1 Golden Age Points for every 5 Science per turn, and
+2 Gold from City Connections.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

Ogma, the Learned
+1 Science for every 3 Citizens in a city.
+3 Science, Culture, and Great Scientist Points in Capital.
+5 Science from Ceilidh Hall.

Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty
+2 Culture in every City. +1 Gold and Production
from every improved resource.
+5 Golden Age Points from Ceilidh Hall.

 

[CrazyG]

I want to like the above post 10 times just because he included the current pantheons.
Here are some thoughts from another user on pantheons: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/celtic-pantheon-playthrough-of-an-amateur.652841/

Of the 10 pantheons, I'd sort them this way

Spoiler Pantheons :

Ogma: S
I had a really successful game with it here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...nals-ii-the-celts-new-players-welcome.636685/
This was an interesting experiment as we could compare a few different approaches with the pantheons. Ogma is great with progress, it leads to a very strong start and has decent scaling all game.

Epona: S
If you want a really easy game, take this and tradition. Crazy amounts of culture and science in the mid-game. Works best on high production land.

Dagda: B
Long term scaling. This is super overrated by others IMO. The early game is kind of slow. You need 12 followers to match Lugh, which means around 16 population per city. That's a long time to wait on a pantheon.

Lugh: A
This thing was broken when the early game was different. You can still snowball pretty well with it. It works without tradition BTW, just rush markets.

Mannan: A
If your first few cities are all coastal its amazing, but it drops off.

Morrigan: B
IIRC the yields are actually quite low. Conceptually it looks nice but the values just aren't anything special.

Rhiannon: B
It's boring but its pretty good.

Cernunnos: B
This works really well on jungle truffles specifically, but otherwise its mediocre. Jungles are pretty bad tiles, and the buff to forests isn't game changing. Even when you roll a ton of forest or jungle, stuff like Lugh or Ogma can compete.

Nuada: C
It isn't bad but I can't see myself ever actually picking it. I think Dagda does scaling better.

Bran: F
What even is the point of this?

 

[hokath]

Thanks, that's really helpful.

On Bran, I'm interested:
if you were to make a religion like: Bran/(Apostolic)/Cooperation/(food)/Syncretism/reform
then go progress, and try to make quite a few cities, do you think that all the yields from births just aren't significant enough for this to be viable?

 

[CrazyG]

Thanks, that's really helpful.

On Bran, I'm interested:
if you were to make a religion like: Bran/(Apostolic)/Cooperation/(food)/Syncretism/reform
then go progress, and try to make quite a few cities, do you think that all the yields from births just aren't significant enough for this to be viable?

Well the best way to know for sure would be to give it a try. 8 culture per birth can be a lot in the early game so your start should be decent. I'm just worried about happiness.

 

[pineappledan]

Well the best way to know for sure would be to give it a try. 8 culture per birth can be a lot in the early game so your start should be decent. I'm just worried about happiness.

Ignoring the 25%Growth vs 1 on all resources. (Rhiannon is better)
Bran gives 8 per birth. Rhiannon gives 8 every 4 turns (and contributes to boredom reduction)

Rhiannon's actually middle of the road for Celtic Pantheons, and it beats Bran's numbers outright. Even Goddess of Love, the base Pantheon, gives 15/10/5. That's uncomfortably good in comparison to a Celtic pantheon's 8.
Bran also has the dubious honor of being the only pantheon that gives less than 3 yield types (if you consider Ogma's GSP a yield)
Seems like an easy number's tweak to get Bran up to a respectable level; maybe 10/ on birth and 33% growth?

Some other notes:
- Rhiannon is the only one who has “goddess of” in her name and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Could we not call her “Rhiannon the Sovereign”?
- While on the subject, Morrigan’s “the harbinger of strife” is a bit of a mouthful. Maybe just “the Harbinger”, or the “The Three in One”, or maybe “the Phantom Queen”?
- cernunnos needs a bonus to plantation. The forest yields make clearing a forest plantation resource at best a value-neutral proposition. Maybe 1 to match the camps?
- Bran, Morrigan, and Epona are the only beliefs that don't help with happiness at all (instant yields only)
- Weird that Epona gives no bonus to border growth while God of the Expanse does. Maybe Epona should give 3 Border Growth Points in all cities, and then another 3 BGP at Ceilidh hall? 4 alone on Ceilidh is easily the weakest Ceilidh boost of the lot.
- Morrigan gives 100% of a unit's CS as //. I think this is a good level, because you don't want it to out-Aztec the Aztecs (150% / on kills), but it's not quite enough on its own. I wonder if maybe Morrigan could give new units 10XP or something?
- Goddess of Beauty givesGArtist and GEng points, but Ogma only gives 1 type: GScientist. Shouldn’t ogma, the god who invented the Celtic script, give GWriter points? I guess you wouldn’t have anywhere to put the GW for your first writer, but it still seems off.
- I don’t agree with @CrazyG's assessment of Lugh. Getting a specialist in each of your cities forces you to rush trade for markets ASAP, on the opposite side of the tree from Pictish warrior. Then you have to build the market. Then you have to get enough food and population to actually fill the slot. It gives no food to support that specialist, so you’re forced to support a -3food negative citizen earlier than you reasonably would want to. Compare that to Mannan, who gives only slightly worse yields with no setup whatsoever. Lugh should have its 3gold replaced with 4food. Without some way to support an early specialist, this belief is downright masochistic.
- Mannan and God of the Sea both give food to coastal cities, and this is the only pantheon I see that gives the same bonus as the comparable base pantheon (besides dagda/god-king, but that’s unavoidable). Maybe swap the food for science?

 

[amateurgamer88]

Of the 10 pantheons, I'd sort them this way

I don't think Dagda is overrated. No one is saying that it's amazing early game as it's a long term investment. However, it will very worthwhile even in the midgame. I think you got the scalar wrong because it's per 3 follower and not 4. I think that makes a big difference. Since the Celts don't generally miss out on a religion, it's in a position to take advantage of this.

Regarding Lugh, I fear it's not as good as you claim. You either need Food to work a specialist or production to get that Market built in a reasonable amount of time. Rarely do you get both and that's the issue. By the time you do, the yields aren't as impressive. I honestly want the yields changed so that it's more for the late early game or early mid-game than early game.

Nuanda is actually bad since the yields are capped at half your followers.

 

[pineappledan]

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 Culture for every 10 Gold per turn,
+1 Golden Age Points for every 5 Science per turn, and
+2 Gold from City Connections.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

Nuanda is actually bad since the yields are capped at half your followers.

I didn’t say anything about Nuanda because I think it’s not just a numbers tweak there. Nuanda needs a rework.

it’s supposed to be the big / one right? Why does he have a scaler off of science generation, but 0 additional science? God of Commerce gives 2 on city connections; it’s the same yield in the same amount.

how about this?
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 science and GAP for every 10 Gold per turn
22 for city connections.
1Gold on all tiles near the city.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I didn’t say anything about Nuanda because I think it’s not just a numbers tweak there. Nuanda needs a rework.

it’s supposed to be the big / one right? Why does he have a scaler off of science generation, but 0 additional science? God of Commerce gives 2 on city connections; it’s the same yield in the same amount.

how about this?
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 science and GAP for every 10 Gold per turn
22 for city connections.
1Gold on all tiles near the city.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

That's an interesting idea for sure. With Progress, you can get +5 for city connections which's a ton. Then, the +1 Gold for all tiles seems like a lot of possible gold. If you have tiles with plenty of gold, you will be swimming in more. I'd honestly prefer something along the lines of this:

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 Culture for every 10 Gold per turn (not capping at half the followers)
222 for city connections.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

 

[Gidoza]

I'm not sold on Ogma. While it certainly scales, I'd prefer the bonuses of Culture from the other scaling ones or from Camps where it is consistent, besides the other bonuses.

 

[pineappledan]

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 Culture for every 10 Gold per turn (not capping at half the followers)
222 for city connections.
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

seems low, but I tend not to value GAPs. I was trying to avoid new code stuff. If there isn’t a table for yields on terrain, there is an X yield per X citizens on terrain thing.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't think Dagda is overrated. No one is saying that it's amazing early game as it's a long term investment. However, it will very worthwhile even in the midgame. I think you got the scalar wrong because it's per 3 follower and not 4. I think that makes a big difference. Since the Celts don't generally miss out on a religion, it's in a position to take advantage of this.

I went by the numbers on Hokath's post. It its per 3 you are probably right. Does it provide production as well?

Edit: Yes it gives 1 gold, science, culture and production per 3 followers, I haven't actually played it since it was 1 for 4. The production is especially disgusting because its all in a single city and you get a lot of wonders in the Renaissance. This is probably overall the best choice the celts have.

I'm not sold on Ogma. While it certainly scales, I'd prefer the bonuses of Culture from the other scaling ones or from Camps where it is consistent, besides the other bonuses.

I think you can pretty often get a starting position where Ogma is the clear best choice, really competing with only Dagda.

I didn’t say anything about Nuanda because I think it’s not just a numbers tweak there. Nuanda needs a rework.

I agree.

Rhiannon's actually middle of the road for Celtic Pantheons, and it beats Bran's numbers outright

I think Bran scales with era so in theory it doesn't outright lose, but yea its terrible. I think you can compare Bran to a normal civ who takes Goddess of Fertility, and it means that the Celtic UA was basically 8 culture when a citizen is born, and extra city damage, which is clearly awful.

 

[pineappledan]

I think Bran scales with era so in theory it doesn't outright lose,

Simple enough math. Do you expect cities to grow every 4/8/12/16 turns in classical/medieval/renaissance/industrial with Bran? If not, Rhiannon's got Bran beat.

If you have tiles with plenty of gold, you will be swimming in more. I'd honestly prefer something along the lines of this:

Just realized how dangerous my original proposal would be for Golden Ages. New plan:

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 science and GAP for every 10 Gold per turn
22 for city connections.
1Gold for every non-specialist in the city (just set all yield per X terrain types to 100)
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

Switch 5 on Ceilidh from Rhiannon. Give Rhiannon 5
It's weird that Rhiannon boosts Ceilidh halls with GAPs when her pantheon doesn't even give that yield. Should also help boost Rhiannon jut a little, and nerf what could be a very potent new Nuada

 

[hokath]

Simple enough math. Do you expect cities to grow every 4/8/12/16 turns in classical/medieval/renaissance/industrial with Bran? If not, Rhiannon's got Bran beat.

You also need to take into account the value of the extra food scaling while rhiannon's prod/gold doesn't. It could become worth quite a serious amount, I would have thought?

Basically I don't know how bad Bran exactly is. Rhiannon is surely awful, though? Amateurgamer didn't even put it in his review! (did it not exist or you forgot, or I can't read?)

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King
+1 science and GAP for every 10 Gold per turn
22 for city connections.
1Gold for every non-specialist in the city (just set all yield per X terrain types to 100)
+5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

Yeah looks good.

On Lugh: maybe it could be that the pantheon doesn't gain flat one of its yields, but instead all specialists in the city get +1 of that yield, thereby giving it some scaling?

A similar thing could be done for Mannanan but give the +1 yield to each sea tile?

Morrigan gives 100% of a unit's CS as //. I think this is a good level, because you don't want it to out-Aztec the Aztecs (150% / on kills), but it's not quite enough on its own. I wonder if maybe Morrigan could give new units 10XP or something?

Agreed. Maybe the % could be increased but the gold removed to further differentiate them also?

 

[CrazyG]

You also need to take into account the value of the extra food scaling while rhiannon's prod/gold doesn't. It could become worth quite a serious amount, I would have thought?

Basically I don't know how bad Bran exactly is. Rhiannon is surely awful, though? Amateurgamer didn't even put it in his review! (did it not exist or you forgot, or I can't read?)

Bran compares to the regular pantheon, goddess of fertility.

The Celts with Bran would have 3 faith per city, 4 more at circus, 25% growth, and 8 culture per citizen. Also the pressure thing, don't pass your pantheon to other civs, and 100% city combat strength (which is probably pretty useful this patch, you can probably one hit kill medieval era units with a castle).
A regular civ would get 2 faith per city (1 on shrine, 1 on well/watermill), 4 food and 25% growth, and a unique ability.

For the bold part, they are pretty close to each other, overall favoring the Celts in my opinion. The question is how do those underlined parts for the Celts compare to a unique ability.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Amateurgamer didn't even put it in his review! (did it not exist or you forgot, or I can't read?)

Well, I play a game with each pantheon before I make a review. Don't have time at the moment to make the video and then share my thoughts.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Here are the changes and/or tweaks I like to see. Some numbers might still need to be adjusted.

Bran, the Sleeping Guardian:

+50% increase to Ranged Combat Strength, +25% Growth, and +20 Culture when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +4 Faith from Ceilidh Hall.

Lugh, the Skilled One:

+3 Food in city. +3 Culture, Science, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +3 Production from Ceilidh Hall.

Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife

Earn Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points if you kill a unit. +10 Experience for units created in the city. +2 Great General Points from Ceilidh Hall.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King (Rework)

+1 Culture for every 10 Gold per turn (not capping at half the followers). 222 for city connections. +5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

 

[pineappledan]

Bran, the Sleeping Guardian:

I really have no handle on what an appropriate ranged attack modifier would be with the new system. I would guess that a more appropriate number would be 25% for now though (and God of war reduced to 15%)

Lugh, the Skilled One:

I like the idea of giving exactly 3 food to offset exactly 1 specialist for Lugh. It makes the beliefs much more palatable to take, and less like you're hobbling your own cities in the early game.

That said, It would ultimately be a nerf to Lugh long-term. What about this?

Lugh, the Skilled One:
+3 Food, Culture and Science in Cities with a Specialist.
+1 to Specialists.
+3 Production from Ceilidh Hall.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I really have no handle on what an appropriate ranged attack modifier would be with the new system. I would guess that a more appropriate number would be 25% for now though (and God of war reduced to 15%)

I think we can expect city ranged strength to go down again in the next patch. Can't say how much of course, but I imagine we'd probably want to adjust Bran and God of War based on that.