The Celts

[pineappledan]

On the "to or from", does that mean an internal route counts twice?

I changed Ogma to GArtist points in my list, as per the recommendations

This list is a big improvement over the current version, but I don't think you should add the great writer points to Ogmaunless the great work slot can be added somehow.

I used the exact same verbiage as God of Commerce for consistency. I assume that, if you have GoC or Nuada in 2 cities and you send an ITR between then, that's 3/3/3 in each city, but that's really a question for G oor someone who can read C++ and communicate precisely how that code works.

 

[pineappledan]

Update: the commit has been pushed to github.

I confirmed that Celt's cities all lose their 3 faith when you found a religion, and don't get it back until they are converted from majority pantheon to your majority religion.
I can't do anything about how that works though, because that bonus is enmeshed with either the UniqueBeliefsOnly or NoNaturalReligionSpread, so it can't be pulled out and just put on the pantheon bonuses directly via Belief_CityYieldChanges or Belief_YieldPerFollowingCity

On a side note, the pantheon tables are really bizarre:

• Belief_CityYieldChanges and Belief_YieldPerFollowingCity both exist, and I don't know how they are different, or why both exist?
  
• Belief_CapitalYieldChanges exists, but every belief that gives yields to the capital just gives them to the BUILDINGCLASS_PALACE via Belief_BuildingClassYieldChanges. That's pretty clever, but I wonder why Belief_CapitalYieldChanges exists at all if none of the code is going to use it, and other code works just as well?

There's a whole bunch of things I wish religions could do, because it's nearly impossible to implement religion via lua, but instead weve got multiple tables coding for the same thing.

 

[stii]

Update: the commit has been pushed to github.

I confirmed that Celt's cities all lose their 3 faith when you found a religion, and don't get it back until they are converted from majority pantheon to your majority religion.
I can't do anything about how that works though, because that bonus is enmeshed with either the UniqueBeliefsOnly or NoNaturalReligionSpread, so it can't be pulled out and just put on the pantheon bonuses directly via Belief_CityYieldChanges or Belief_YieldPerFollowingCity

On a side note, the pantheon tables are really bizarre:

• Belief_CityYieldChanges and Belief_YieldPerFollowingCity both exist, and I don't know how they are different, or why both exist?
  
• Belief_CapitalYieldChanges exists, but every belief that gives yields to the capital just gives them to the BUILDINGCLASS_PALACE via Belief_BuildingClassYieldChanges. That's pretty clever, but I wonder why Belief_CapitalYieldChanges exists at all if none of the code is going to use it, and other code works just as well?

There's a whole bunch of things I wish religions could do, because it's nearly impossible to implement religion via lua, but instead weve got multiple tables coding for the same thing.

Losing that much faith seems really awkward, maybe give them a faith bonus on founding a religion to compensate? It is a bit of a messy answer but probably better than nothing?

 

[pineappledan]

Fixed pantheons to continue to provide bonuses in cities after a religion is founded (removes 'lag time' between founding and spreading religion for pantheon faiths)

Losing that much faith seems really awkward, maybe give them a faith bonus on founding a religion to compensate? It is a bit of a messy answer but probably better than nothing?

G might have already fixed it with this upcoming beta? Not sure if it affects Celt's UA too

 

[Gazebo]

G might have already fixed it with this upcoming beta? Not sure if it affects Celt's UA too

celtic UA is a unique thing and intended.

 

[hokath]

Glad to see this discussion went somewhere! Good job team.

 

[tothePAIN]

I enjoy the faith on Cerunnos, it leads to fantastic starts, but why is it there? None of the other pantheons give faith. Early game, the science from the jungles feels great and the culture from pantheons is really nice over the long run.

Ogma is in a nice place, it's great for tradition or progress now.

I've only played those 2 pantheons so far, no comments on the changes to the others.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I played a couple of games specifically to test Cerununnos and honestly it's just too strong; it provides plenty of every yield that matters on any plantation heavy/camp in forest or jungle start and don't get me wrong i like Celtic pantheons being powerful but this is just way too much and the science early on honestly should just go ..... it creates scenarios where you can totally ignore building councils and libraries and still be ahead in science even with tradition civs in the game.
I propose the following:

• The pantheon loses base faith on jungles and forests
• Jungles gain one faith instead of 1 science
• 1 science in every city.

so the pantheon looks like this:
1 1 on forests. 1 1 on Jungles, 1 on camps, 2 on plantations, 1 in every city, 2 from Ceilidh hall

 

[pineappledan]

How bout this?
1 on forest
1 on jungle
1 on camps and plantations
2 on Ceilidh hall

Gets rid of the faith.
Forest and jungle get whatever base yield their base improvement (logging camp/lumber mill) doesn’t give. 1 base to differentiate from iroquois who get 1 per tile
Makes plantations and camps more uniform, with a buff to camps. Compare 1 to Hunt’s 1

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

How bout this?
1 on forest
1 on jungle
1 on camps and plantations
2 on Ceilidh hall

Gets rid of the faith.
Forest and jungle get whatever base yield their base improvement (logging camp/lumber mill) doesn’t give. 1 base to differentiate from iroquois who get 1 per tile
Makes plantations and camps more uniform, with a buff to camps. Compare 1 to Hunt’s 1

I like ithat you totally got rid of the extra faith which was odd to start with but i'd rather the plantations keep the extra since they won't be getting the forest/jungle buff after improvement.
So a forest camp gets 1 but a Plantation gets 21 as a compensation for the lost forest.
Sure it makes non-forest plantation starts abit better but it's not a big deal anyway.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

I have to try it more, but actually it would be great if yields on pristine forests could be kept as a mechanism somewhere, even if nerfed. Like faith for every x unimproved forests worked by the city. It is quite unique, reminds the vanilla vibe, and at some point you have to either improve or work other tiles so it offers an interesting choice.

 

[tothePAIN]

I like ithat you totally got rid of the extra faith which was odd to start with but i'd rather the plantations keep the extra since they won't be getting the forest/jungle buff after improvement.
So a forest camp gets 1 but a Plantation gets 21 as a compensation for the lost forest.
Sure it makes non-forest plantation starts abit better but it's not a big deal anyway.

This^^

Right now, Cerunnos has great early science, great long term culture,and easy faith. I'm founding with one or two cities.

To me, the top 2 Celtic pantheons are Cerunnos and Ogma right now.

Even so, Im not certain if I'd take away the science from the jungles. Its strong. Ut as @pineappledan always points out, the pantheon is also the Celt entire UA.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

This^^

Right now, Cerunnos has great early science, great long term culture,and easy faith. I'm founding with one or two cities.

To me, the top 2 Celtic pantheons are Cerunnos and Ogma right now.

Even so, Im not certain if I'd take away the science from the jungles. Its strong. Ut as @pineappledan always points out, the pantheon is also the Celt entire UA.

I don't think there is any disagreement about the Celtic pantheon should be significantly stronger than regular pantheons but the power level on Cerununnos is way over the top even compared to the rest of Celtic pantheons; take Rhiannon for example ... It provides 2 culture in every city which is just one plantation improved by Cerununnos, gold and production on every resource which is basically what every jungle/forest gets without improvement .... It provides no science or faith like Cerununnos and 2 culture from Celidih hall is much stronger than 5GA points.

 

[stii]

This^^

Right now, Cerunnos has great early science, great long term culture,and easy faith. I'm founding with one or two cities.

To me, the top 2 Celtic pantheons are Cerunnos and Ogma right now.

Even so, Im not certain if I'd take away the science from the jungles. Its strong. Ut as @pineappledan always points out, the pantheon is also the Celt entire UA.

Yeah lots of civs have powerful abilities I'm not sure one is too strong. Maybe leaning the other way would be better, make the others stronger. I kind of want all patheons to give faith as not founding a religion is just awful for Celts so I'm not sure you can pick a non faith one often.

I think the main reason the forest/jungle patheon is so good is that it works on unimproved titles, having the bonus right away is so huge especially for new cities. It is fun seeing how broken it can get however.

 

[tothePAIN]

Yeah lots of civs have powerful abilities I'm not sure one is too strong. Maybe leaning the other way would be better, make the others stronger. I kind of want all patheons to give faith as not founding a religion is just awful for Celts so I'm not sure you can pick a non faith one often.

I think the main reason the forest/jungle patheon is so good is that it works on unimproved titles, having the bonus right away is so huge especially for new cities. It is fun seeing how broken it can get however.

I've been playing a lot of Celtic games. Tradition Ogma is really strong. Cerunnos is great with both tradition and progress.

The celtics can found on tradition with 2 cities and a handful (4-6) pictish warriors, or even on 2 cities with Progress, Cerunnos, and Pictish Warriors.

I tried a border blob Epona but it's currently still giving gold instead of food. It was strong but that was a deity game, so it was hard to see if it was overpowered. (My conclusion on deity is that it takes overpowered abilities and combos to win, emperor and immortal are better for actually testing abilities.)

I'm posting from my phone now but I may post some screenshots later to discuss my thoughts on the pantheons overall.

 

[stii]

I've been playing a lot of Celtic games. Tradition Ogma is really strong. Cerunnos is great with both tradition and progress.

(My conclusion on deity is that it takes overpowered abilities and combos to win, emperor and immortal are better for actually testing abilities.)

.

Can't really argue with that, you need to do multiple really powerful things and there is a thin line between broken and just very good. There are loads of minor thing you can do too which add up and make it even more tricky see see.

That said I think this pantheon is still a bit too good firstly. It doesn't work correctly, improved forests still get +1faith. Secondly I think the jungle buff is a bit too much, it makes huge areas of jungle so powerful, maybe it should swap the 1 science on jungles for 1 gold, I appreciate it is nice to get a bit of everything but it means this pantheon does everything.

All the pantheons are also amplified by the fact your UU gives faith so you can get it pretty early without even building a shrine if you build a warrior then double upgrade.

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah lots of civs have powerful abilities I'm not sure one is too strong. Maybe leaning the other way would be better, make the others stronger.

The problem I see in listening in is that people are going round and round on this topic. Ultimately two key questions need to be answered and agreed on before productive debate on solutions can occur:

1) What is the Celt's strongest pantheon?
2) Are the Celt's balanced against other civs at that pantheon, too weak, or too strong?

 

[stii]

The problem I see in listening in is that people are going round and round on this topic. Ultimately two key questions need to be answered and agreed on before productive debate on solutions can occur:

1) What is the Celt's strongest pantheon?
2) Are the Celt's balanced against other civs at that pantheon, too weak, or too strong?

It can be tricky to answer stuff like this due to different play styles and pantheons in particular swing wildly based on terrain.

However I feel that before Centarious (or however you spell it, the forest/jungle pantheon) was the best by a long way and now it is better but it is at least possible you might pick another. The issue is that the others require the right setup to be good while a forest pantheon is almost always good because you have a forest bias. It also buffs unimproved titles which is a huge advantage, you get the advantage right away with a delay like one of the others. This is further amplified by the ability to get a really quick pantheon with your UU, something that affects improvements gains little from being so fast but +4food +4gold +4 faith is huge early. I found it pretty easy to get first religion, even having enough to spread it to all my cities before any of the AI made a religion at all. This might well not be an issue as you really don't want any civ with religion focus to have any chance of missing out. But this does also mean any pantheons that don't provide faith are pretty bad.

Having one pantheon that does everything is an issue, it gives food, gold, science, production, faith and culture!

 

[tothePAIN]

The problem I see in listening in is that people are going round and round on this topic. Ultimately two key questions need to be answered and agreed on before productive debate on solutions can occur:

1) What is the Celt's strongest pantheon?
2) Are the Celt's balanced against other civs at that pantheon, too weak, or too strong?

As @stii said, the pantheons are terrain dependent, so there isn't a best pantheon for every start. But Cerunnos in its current state is the best Celtic pantheon if you have a forest / jungle start in my opinion. The key is some jungle and some camps and plantations, which are not uncommon. Those combine for very strong culture, science, and faith in the early game, while allowing the Celtics to found with any policy tree, including Progress. Culture is the key yield in this game and Cerunnos gets +2 culture on the UB.

My sense of balance is a little bit skewed at the moment because I can win most non-deity games handily but deity games are a grind. My sense of balance is also skewed because the Way of the Pilgrim religious belief + fealty opener is overpowered and I've been playing that a lot.

Culture and science, particularly culture, are the key snowball yields. Cerunnos gives both. So does Ogma, which is why I think very highly of Ogma as well. The others enable the Celtics to play like other civilizations. Epona lets Celts play a bit of a border blog strategy like Russia. Nuada lets Celts play like Portugal. But Cerunnos and Ogma let the Celtics take off fast with great early game culture and science.

 

[Novntis]

Epona, the Great Mare
+3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
+5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.

Question about this implementation as compared to God of the Expanse. Are the yields on Epona the Great Mare supposed to scale with Gamespeed like God of the Expanse? If so we need to change the description (and change the gold to food to match what was discussed) or we probably make it scale and then change the description.