The Deity Challenge Line-up #41 - Shoshone

[beetle]

@ST: Bribe NW neighbor to attack E…

Never an option in my game.

Swarmed by [NW] and [E] on turn 45.

Yeah, that is not survivable; you have to break them up. Reload back to T44, double check that you cannot get [NW] to DOW [E]. If that is not an option, denounce both. In my game, that gave [NW] pause enough for me to deal with [E].

I also opened my pathfinder to the NW and immediately captured a worker and harassed him a bit, that might have helped contain him?

From what I can tell from the write-ups -- Yes, worker steal from NW neighbor is what the difference for most of of the games. I wish I had done that, but I went the other direction.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Spoiler :

Defeated Huns on turn 85 but I don't have the NC up so I'm not gonna make good time on Machinery. I may have to restart again. I managed somehow to bribe Theo to attack Poland and then Poland attacked Cathy which gave me breathing room.

 

[consentient]

the only way to succeed is to hope either of the two attacks someone else. But that's a coin flip

@ST: Bribe NW neighbor to attack E, even if he doesn't move any troops, you get a positive fought in the same war modifier. And E never makes peace, so you can take you time to prepare army until you're ready to fight NW.

I wanted to. Apparently they haven't met yet

From what I can tell from the write-ups -- Yes, worker steal from NW neighbor is what the difference for most of of the games. I wish I had done that, but I went the other direction.

I paid NW to attack SE (under-dressed) and E, and denounced, and was immediately offered a DoF by E. All of this happened before T45, which is when ST had a double DoW.

I had a really strong start and was able to settle a city in NW's face, which obviously riles him, but gave me a defensive edge even had he attacked. NW is only a problem pre-CB. His mounted units are nothing when they don't move and shoot, and his other UU are just pointless against a human. The E neighbour can be a problem, but you should be swimming in horses so give him 1 for free when you've improved them and he won't attack, even before you bribe NW to DoW him.

As for the worker steals, not necessary. I didn't want to provoke NW before I was ready to deal with him, but what I did do was put all my troops that weren't otherwise engaged between my borders and his, and bribe him as soon as he'd take one. It's not like he really wants to specifically kill you.

I maintain that not only is this map not impossible or related to a coin flip, but that it's the easiest DCL map to do a CB rush on, by far. I think, ST, you've had stinking luck in having played a game where these guys hadn't met, and/or maybe forgot the early game diplomacy necessary to get the right dynamics between the neighbours, across your game(s).

I wanted to know what is the tech path for Honor-C-A, is it
Luxtech -> Philosophy -> Construction -> Currency -> Machinery -> Education -> Banking -> Oxford dynamite -> Industrialization for 3x factory autocracy

That's pretty much classic. Occasionally you will want to Oxford Industrialisation to get happiness or gold out of Autocracy, either if you're doing quite well with XBs and Cannons and don't need to rush into Artillery, or if you know that Artillery itself won't be enough.

Also, I've also delayed Construction beyond Education so my Archers were super promoted, but this depends on what level of early war you're in. Limited war against a weak neighbour like Morocco means that Archers and Horsemen can hold their own against Spears, but the moment you're facing Pikes you obviously have to make peace or hit Construction.

Or do you take construction before philosophy? Assuming not CB rush, NC is better for science.
Education before Machinery? Not sure if delaying XB is a good idea.

If you're going to take Construction before Philosophy, 3-city Liberty NC is strictly better. Honor is better for delayed conquest.

 

[beetle]

Defeated [NW] on turn 85 but I don't have the NC up so I'm not gonna make good time on Machinery. I may have to restart again.

Sounds more than okay! What did you do differently to break up the T45 double-dow?

 

[stormtrooper412]

I didn't get attacked by the other

Spoiler :

Seriously now, I can't remember but I think I managed to persuade Theo of all people. I didn't check but I think I'll have Machinery at around T105. Liberty will finish in around 5 turns, so I'll plant an academy there. I might attack Arabia before then but I doubt it, I lost a lot of units because Huns actually defended really well, positioned range units behind and let pikes and cities tank damage.

Or bulb Machinery and stack 15-ish XBs?

 

[beetle]

Nowhere near, I'm sad to say. You want to hit Dynamite ca. T160-180. With beelining, Oxford + GS bulb it's really achievable most games.

Hmm. I think I was sitting on a GS, and I was doing something wrong that I gotten through so much of Rationalism by then. One of these time I am going try aiming for Dom VC via Rocketry -- since that is what it takes for me to get rolling anyway!

 

[consentient]

You'll have a much harder time of things leaving it that late. I don't understand your reluctance to figure out what you did that was not so optimal and try to refine your play to meet the windows. If after Machinery you go Education > Chemistry > Fertiliser and then up to the next rung and power through with a mixture of RAs, GS bulbs and Oxford, then hitting Artillery on T170 is easily doable and easily the most broken thing in the game. If you get to Artillery nice and early, the AI have no idea what's hit them.

 

[beetle]

If after Machinery you go Education > Chemistry > Fertiliser and then up to the next rung and power through with a mixture of RAs, GS bulbs and Oxford, then hitting Artillery on T170 is easily doable and easily the most broken thing in the game.

That is probably my best bet. I was thinking about replaying from T0, taking CB upgrade for first ruin and then sending him NW. But getting better at pivoting from XB to Arty would be replaying fewer turns and a more generalizable skill.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I am actually quite surprised by how well this went.

Spoiler :

Huns actually had Pyramids and Great Library which was really nice of them. I annexed Court and will pump out some defenses in case he tries to retaliate (he might!)

I have punched my science up from 35 to 90 just with NC, Academy and a pair of caravans. As you can see, my army is looking good but not big enough to be split. However I think I should be able to take out Poland without much trouble, I tried to see if Theo wants to attack (of course she does, Theo is the best AI to have around, honest!) but I suspect Poland wants to attack someone else as well so, pay up, wait a bit then snipe with minimal losses.

On a more derpy side, I became friends with Arabia. They're kind of weak and I suppose I should be able to clear them out after I've dealt with Poland. Or not. Or slowly build 8-9 more XBs and take them out afterwards.

What do you guys think?

 

[Blatc]

You've got pyramids and Xbows on T101; get to war and push your edge/ability to heal.
You have extra happiness; I would use some luxuries to get as many of the Eastern civs to war as possible.
Where are your caravans going (use spoiler); that may affect my advice.

 

[consentient]

@ST:

Spoiler :

Pay Poland to attack Hawaii (1st priority) and anyone else you can afford to bribe him for. Wait 1 turn. Denounce. Wait 1 turn. Attack Wroclaw and raze. Then assault Warsaw. Make peace and continue to Moscow. By this time you may have been able to build another army to hit Honolulu/Venice. Leave you good friend to last as if he's weak it won't matter. You're going for a decent finish and not speed, right?

A few questions though:

1. Why are you building a Shrine in Agaidika?
2. Why is your GPT so low? Due to Shrines/Ampitheaters/etc? Sell them. This game won't need them if you commit to the war.
3. Do you have markets in the cities?

Anyway, nice timing for Machinery. You can finish this in 50-80 turns no probs

 

[stormtrooper412]

@ST:
A few questions though:

1. Why are you building a Shrine in Agaidika?
2. Why is your GPT so low? Due to Shrines/Ampitheaters/etc? Sell them. This game won't need them if you commit to the war.
3. Do you have markets in the cities?

Anyway, nice timing for Machinery. You can finish this in 50-80 turns no probs

1. Hm. I had no idea it was queued up. I think it was because I want to get a religious building up.
2. I took out a loan to upgrade the remaining troops.
3. Pretty sure I don't. oops

also

Spoiler :

Both caravans go to Huns as it is the highest grossing place currently. Because they built the GL their science was quite good. So, no attack on Lodz then?

 

[vanatteveldt]

@ST

Spoiler :

Why not keep Warsaw - it has a unique luxury and it would be very annoying if a new city would be plunked there between you and the far East?

I would attack either Lodz or Warsaw but not both as it is a distraction. If you want to raze I don't think it matters that much. If you want to puppet Warsaw is better because of the win.

I had great difficulty attacking Moscow directly due to terrain, you might want to consider going through honolulu to make use of the plains, and use the N army to kill theo and keep rusisia busy?

 

[consentient]

@ST:

Spoiler :

You don't need to go anywhere near Lodz. Just burn Wroclaw to the ground and assault Warsaw from the NW. That's what I did and it worked beautifully.

For those that say "hey, there might be a city settled in there that breaks the road" - you really don't need to build roads on this map. It would be more of a PITA. Just take out the capitals ASAP and win.

I like the idea of caravans to the Huns but make sure to check for units every turn.

Build markets asap or your economy will flounder.

In my DomV games, expo build order is Monument, Archer(s), Library, Market

 

[vanatteveldt]

@consentient:

Why wouldn't you build roads to the newly captured capitals? The connection gold should easily outweigh costs, especially after the commerce policy, your workers don't really have anything better to do, and the roads can help move troops. I sometimes have troops healing in city 1 while the rest goes after city 2, and the road from 1 to 2 helps them catch up with the troops. Same goes for new troops that need to join the army.

Edit, and it's not just the road, if e.g. you make peace and he plants a new city there, you have to move around it to get to the next victim with new troops / GG / etc.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Roads would be a big hassle, I mean just the road from my cap to [E] would be 10 tiles, and that's pretty much never gonna be a net gain in this map and game type

Spoiler :

Hawaii have the Wall, so that might be a problem if my army doesn't get insanely strong from conquering Poland :/

Do I go Unis and then Chemistry? My cities aren't really big enough to slot scientist slots :/

 

[beetle]

The land between Moson Kahni and the nearby E cap is crazy fertile. Both cities mentioned each have 4 stable resources and a wine!

@ST, it seem to me you are in extremely good shape. What could go wrong?

Roads would be a big hassle, I mean just the road from my cap to [E] would be 10 tiles, and that's pretty much never gonna be a net gain in this map and game type.

That is why I think you want to keep one of those cities. Two 5 road segments to two cities is a small profit. One 10 road segment to one city is significant drain. You still have half the map to mop up. I don't think you will have much trouble, but the road would help just for logistics.

 

[vanatteveldt]

The great wall doesn't need to be a problem. The terrain is flat, so you only need to get to range 2, so the wall simply means the city can shoot one extra time, which should be no problem for XB. Also, you probably have some range-promoted XB by now, that will help as well.

About the road / pupetting the intermediate city: I guess I'm a builder at heart, I just want to impose some order (or Order) on the conquered territories. In terms of gold, the extra city should be a net plus after the reisistance is over, which will take 4 turns or so for those cities. In terms of happy, because of the unique lux it will only be a small net minus also depending on whether a circus / colloseum survives capture. So it really depends on how long the war will last: if it lasts long enough for 4 turns to be meaningless and for the gold and logistics to be important, it might be a good idea. If you're as fast as consentient probably not . In any case, the better insurance policy seems to be to keep the city, since it the war will end that quickly the minor happiness hit will also be no problem?

 

[consentient]

Why wouldn't you build roads to the newly captured capitals?

Because

The connection gold should easily outweigh costs, especially after the commerce policy

They will cost you a ton before you actually join them, and by then you want to have almost won.

your workers don't really have anything better to do

Which is why I deleted them, saving more money than any other option. (16+ GPT)

and the roads can help move troops.

The troops have already moved past the workers who are standing there building roads that no-one will ever move on. The armies that are moving east should be the ones you win the game with.

There are two ways of clearing this map. One is to start warring as early as possible and snowball into a killing machine the others can't stop. The other way is to not to take every advantage and to drag the game out. But the second option means that the longer and longer you drag it out, the more likely one of the AIs is to out-tech you, and/or the lot of them chain DoW you and end your sweep. Even retaking one of the capitals is gonna be a major spanner on this map.

 

[vanatteveldt]

I can see that selling workers might be the best option, but in plains the road construction goes pretty quick with three workers, and costs before finish are negligible if you do a bit of micro.

How do you handle reinforcements / healing? I find roads helpful to join stragglers back to the main army, and you can never fully avoid your XB from getting shot at a bit.