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The Emperor Masters' Challenge

That's what I enjoy about these threads too. I find it fascinating to see how a scenario plays out, whether my advice is taken or not.

So you decided to forgo a pillaging campaign and go the more traditional route of capturing a city, then took the somewhat unusual step of gifting it to someone. Was it the right choice? Only time will tell. Of course, I should have checked the save game to see if you had horses for those chariots I recommended, but I got lazy. Shame on me.

You certainly did an effective job of trimming back Kublai's ears, and then converting him into a friend, so full marks for that. If you can have him join you in destroying Napoleon in a little while (both of which look likely), then this would definitely be one of the turning points and most masterful decisions in the game. :clap:

Now in follow-up, you seem to be doing pretty much what I would--rebuilding your economy, while also preparing for the next war. Yes, by all means, grab that spot in the jungle before anyone else does. It'll take work, but think of all that grassland underneath that jungle!
 
Sisuitil,

based on your experience I may ask if its ok to check in with you occasionally on my next campaign. I've been playing a lot of qin shi because I love the traits, but the UU is too short lived if you CS sling.

someone else explained a great merchant/non religious sling to cs that I'm thinking of trying as the english, if I get it started i'll let you know ;)

now back to the campaign!!

DEFINATELY take over that jungle, he is absolutely right that once developed it will be prime territory.. you even have room to drop a coastal city next to it if you feel the need

looking forward to the next update!!

NaZ
 
Thanks for your continuing support, guys. I must say the forums are quieter during the weekend. Maybe it's the summer season. It's summer over here almost everyday so it makes no difference.

The capturing of Orleans and gifting it to Kublai to turn him into a credible ally against the more dangerous Napoleon is something that I would do in my games (I've been practising diplomacy since the days of Civ3 :smug:). But not everyone might like the decision. The warmongers might tell me how unnecessary it is and that I should have razed the city and gone on a pillaging spree to completely ruin Napoleon, maybe razing more cities in the process. That is definitely a viable alternative.

However, I work with some short term goals in mind. My first long term goal in this game would be to unify the continent under our rule. The short term goal right now is to end the war, build up the economy and create a relative balance of power. Napoleon might still be the more powerful of the three, but we can now enlist Kublai's help if we want to. And once we've taken care of Napoleon, Kublai would be no match against us.

As for the building up of the economy, I vote for waiting for a courthouse to be up at Turfan and another at Kumbi Saleh, a market to be built in Timbuktu and at least one more worker (and maybe a settler for that jungle site) built before we continue on a war gear. That might delay our declaring war on Napoleon for some turns, but I think we need it if we aren't to fall far behind the other continent. There are 4 civs there, who knows how they are doing now?

At the same time, we need to tech to maces to make it easier for us if our two neighbours are getting longbows soon (which they might). However, if maces need some time before appearing, a lot of catapults can make up for our archaic units in traditional fashion.

Once again, thanks, and keep the comments coming!
 
Aelf,

definately have to agree with your POV. fall back, tech up to macemen, emphasize your time to build up your econ and slowly mass your cats until you have several stacks. I generally play as a mix of warmongering and building, so your strategy is very similiar to mine. your assessment of short term goals is appropriate, and as you tech up if you can prepare a couple of stacks to set up for the following warmongering goal:

prepare 3 stacks consisting of:
5 cats
3 macemen
2 swordsmen or a total of 4-5 macement
1 spearman
1 chariot/etc
or whatever you desire if your warmongering skills are better than mine ;)

also prepare a seperate small pair of stacks that are just chariots or horse archers, to aim for copper, iron, and happyness resources to pillage away napoleons ability to reinforce with anything other than longbowman if possible.

stage your stacks within striking range of 3 of his cities if you can reach them within a turn or two.

ideally the city directly east of beshbalik, and the two cities south east and south west of it.

within 2 turns of declaring war, you need to be sieging 3 of his cities. with the goal of capturing or razing all 3 simultaineously. then pillage away his resources and settle for peace, enabling you to get 10 turns to reinforce your armies and prepare for the next step.

which would ideally be to wipe him out completely ;)

when i looked at the 450 ad save, on the west coast was 2 galleys of napoleons, with an archer a settler, and a stack of 2 cats directly south of one of your towns. monitor them to make sure they no longer camp near your borders or prepare to defend accordingly.

so theres my warmongering input I hope it proves helpful.

NaZ
 
i still didnt open one of your saves, i'm anxious to see whats on the other half of the world, continent
 
I think that you should have kept Orleans. A Holy City is not somethig to give away...
 
Gnarfflinger said:
I think that you should have kept Orleans. A Holy City is not somethig to give away...

I can always take it back later. There isn't even a shrine in there yet.
 
Khan has the buddist holy city huh? Is there a chance he'll turn buddist... r u gonna change religion when he changes???
 
kniteowl said:
Khan has the buddist holy city huh? Is there a chance he'll turn buddist... r u gonna change religion when he changes???

Why not? We're Spiritual.
 
Just a quick note (wanted to get some say in the next turn set ;) )...

If you're going to go for macemen, you should definitely get civil service before machinery. It'll be a bit faster if you get the bureaucracy bonus halfway through.

Also, look for the decapitation strike against Napoleon. You can reach Paris easily by going through Mongolian lands. In theory, with enough catapults, you could capture Paris after only 2-3 turns of war.
 
I like your strategy so far.

The only thing you'll have to be careful of with the religion is with meeting the other civs from other continents. If you get crazy Izzy you can bet she has a different religion and won't like that you're an infidel.
 
malekithe said:
If you're going to go for macemen, you should definitely get civil service before machinery. It'll be a bit faster if you get the bureaucracy bonus halfway through.

Also, look for the decapitation strike against Napoleon. You can reach Paris easily by going through Mongolian lands. In theory, with enough catapults, you could capture Paris after only 2-3 turns of war.

Agree on the first part. With this capital, CS is a must, a no brainer. Besides, the AI often targets Machinery, so you might even trade for it.

Disagree on the Paris-strike. It's near Khan's capital and near other city's so it will get seriously culture pressing. I wouldn;t want to raze a (good) capital.


@Aelf, it's nice to see your tactics and diplomacy actions. As said before, i am playing a shadow game and that makes it much more interesting. I am the warmongerer you speak of. So instead of making an ally, I continued to fight them both (the same time, since they are buddy's) till i will wipe them out.

Time is at the essence. Why? You are with 2 aggressive Civs on a continent. That means there are 4 (i think) on (a) other continent(s). If they trade a lot you might fall behind a lot. Depends on what civs you are facing.

So IMHO, the takeover of the continent is essential and need to be finished asap. Then build up and become the Superpower you are destined for.

BTW, you are right about the forum being quiet in the weekend. But I think a lot of players/visitors of the forum, play in the weekend and write during working hours :)
 
about calm weekends, it's true you cannot play in working hours, but writing is an option ;)
+ it was Soccer World Cup time for some of us (though France lost :sad:)

About the game so far, i'm really amazed of your diplomacy. Good thing IMHO to be "sure" to fight against one enemy at a time.
To be totally sure, you'll need to bribe kublai vs napoleon, but i'm pretty confident you won't need it. Napoleon's power is in shambles now, and Kublai may soon decide that a war against him is necessary, even without your bribe :lol:
Thinking of it, wouldn't it be nice if kublai bribed you to go to war?
Just daydreaming there, but still a nice picture.

I think it's a good thing you extorted traded a few techs. Other than that, you risk to meet the AIs on the other continent after they launched :lol:
Now, building up for some time is going to give kublai some time to build up too, and maybe to launch a war...
Meaning you want enough power not to be the prey (sure he is pleased, but that's far from being a guarantee), and then you can use the power against a common enemy.
My guess would be to build up on happiness ASAP = religion+troops with hereditary rule.

About the jungle site, i wouldn't hurry it. No fresh water, lots of jungle, no food ressource = bad case of unhealthiness = working one single cottage/ressource for a long time. Not going to save your economy, is it? Unless you want the horse=needing border expansion = needing religion or library?

I'm not a city builder myself.
Give the barbs some time to build it (selective fogbusting might make them place it just right), and conquer it.
 
I'd reckon that while this may be the time for a bit of rebuilding and teching it's probably not the time for settling in the jungle .
I suppose the question could be do you wait for maces and face longbows or do you carry on fighting asap; or else maybe you carry on fighting till you face longbows or your economy is running at 0% research or you wipe out Napoleon.
 
Been watching the thread for a while, looks like you're doing a good job with these too. I am but a lowly Noble, so feel free to ignore me, but I thought I would give my opinion nonetheless :p

Rebuilding is a must right now, I think you should wait until your economy is stable again before warring again, especially if you want to keep their cities and save yourself rebuilding them. Bureaucracy will defintitely help there, with some more work you should be able to take the strain of a few more troops and cities.

I agree, don't build the city in the jungle yet, it will be a nightmare to work until you have a few free workers, and will mean your economy will take even longer to fix up for the war. You never know, one of the two might waste their own time and build it for you, like Old Sarai ;)
 
i generally don't build settlers until i can't capture any more cities and there are good city sites left unsettled. the thing is, usually if you leave a good city site in the dark (i.e., no line of sight), barbs will build you a city there, thus saving you the hammers on the settler.

also, as others have mentioned, given the low food and high jungle, this site is not a priority.

i would say that priority is sacking both capitals. if this requires building up and getting maces, then i would do that. once both capitals are down you should be able to mop up the rest of the continent and proceed to a domination victory.
 
Sorry for my absence. I had another few busy days. Anyway, I read your comments. Most seem to agree that some rebuilding needs to be done, but I don't see any definite consensus on when to restart the war. I guess that will depend also on how things go. Short term goals: get courthouses up in Turfan and Kumbi Saleh, a market in Timbuktu and another worker built; finish researching MC and then start on CS.

I am going to play the next round now. If we do end up in war during this round, my plan is to ally with Kublai against Napoleon and attack the northern and western parts of France. Paris I will leave alone until I'm ready to take it and the rest of Mongolia in one shot, or else it will be troubled and threatened by Karakorum's culture. Once control of our continent is accomplished, I think we should be well on our way to winning. I doubt it will be domination, though. The other continent should be bigger as it has 4 civs on it.
 
seems sound strategy to me (i would bribe kublai vs nappy asap though, without warring myself)

What about your jungle city? are you going to settle it or not? (i wouldn't)

Condition victories? i'm afraid it's a SR we are drawing here. May come out as a diplo win if you get enough population.
 
Diplomacy realy depends on the relation of the unknown civs. If they all have the same religion it will prob. one big happy familie. Diplo can be hard in that situation (though, not impossible).

Domination would require invading some new land as Aelf stated.

Space would be a good option. Lots of land, so lots of production. Only need a navy to defend which can be build fairly early. No need for large land military, means more room for producing economy and spaceship parts.

Glad you aint going after Paris. Good luck this round :goodjob:
 
Round8: 455AD - 950AD

"All treaties between great states cease to be binding when they come in conflict with the struggle for existence." - Otto von Bismarck

"Take time to deliberate, but when the time for action has arrived, stop thinking and go in." - Napoleon Bonaparte


And peace it was, drawn along the lines set by the Treaty of Beshebalik. Orleans had been mandated to the Mongolians while France retained all its other possessions after paying some gold as war reparations.

This round, it's peace. Still. Timbuktu started on a market until it grew by one pop., at which point it started on a worker, completing it in 7 turns before continuing on the market. The courthouses were started and whipped in Turfan and Kumbi Saleh, as planned. Well, there are enough cities now to make it too much of a trouble to give details on what each city built. Generally, all the cities had economic builds at one point or another, with some switching to military towards the end.

Moving on to the more interesting aspects of this episode, take a look at our friend Kublai:



One unpromoted archer in the holy city of his state religion. Seems like he got cozy enough with us to perceive no immediate threat. A good sign that the policy of rapproachement towards Mongolia was working.

Well, it turned out that part of the reason for the momentary show of weakness was this:



I hate it when the AI settles just one or two tiles from a spot that I would like to have a city on. Should we raze it when we eventually capture it?

Anyway, our first great person was finally born in Djenne.



Much later than I would've liked, but with no early wonders and not being Philosophical, I am not surprised. I sent the GS to Timbuktu to build an Academy and appreciated the significant boost it gave to our research. It also provided some much-needed culture to fend off the encroaching borders of Old Sarai (which, sadly, managed to claim the copper).

And Kublai got a good boost to his military strength.



I didn't like the look of this. Indeed our neighbours seemed to be teching to longbows. I was mentally prepared to tech to maces before being able to seriously invade, but I also believe that catapults would allow us to wage one or two limited wars to capture a few strategic cities in the meantime.

Well, at least Napoleon didn't have Feudalism yet. With Kublai's power ratings up, I tried to bribe him to fight the French once we finished researching MC.



He wouldn't have it. Must be the blasted mutual struggle bonus he still has with Napoleon. Hey, the war is over and you LOST. Get over it, man!

I thought that in this case he wouldn't get MC for anything, but several turns later I changed my mind and decided to give him a deal.



Wasn't the best of trades, but I thought he was going to get MC himself soon anyway, and I could do with Organised Religion now that Timbuktu had become Christian.

A few turns later, Napoleon grew hostile again.



I thought that was bad sign. I could only hope he wouldn't declare before we managed to get more military built. I would want to go for it if he declared, and to do that we need a credible invasion force.

And the sneaky general was apparently trying to grab some land in my part of the continent:



For some reason, though, he quickly turned back. But his antics weren't over.



I was going to refuse it flatly, thinking that we were going to war with him soon anyway. But I changed my mind as the cursor was hovering on the reject option. What harm could giving some sheep away for now do? It's better that we had several more turns to prepare for the war, at the declaration of which the one-sided deal would be over anyway, so I agreed. And Napoleon grew a little more amiable.



He's really flattered, huh? I took the chance to do a little bit of recon before the war.



Yes, some of you guessed right - he founded Confucianism.

“All religions have been made by men” - Napoleon Bonaparte

Indeed, he made 3 of those himself. And one of his precious holy cities right at the border was guarded by an archer and a spearmen, no less!

It was too tempting. I decided to move whatever units had gathered in Beshebalik towards his border immediately. I think it would be good to invade before he has more longbows.



This is where I stopped. So what now? I would like to declare war right away (hence the ironic quote by Napoleon ;) ). But CS is a few more turns from being complete, and I plan to try and use it bribe Kublai and get some of his techs at the same time. Should we wait to see if we can bribe him before invading? That would take some pressure off our army, but there's no guarantee Kublai would take the deal. And there's no way I'll give him CS without any techs in exchange.

[continued on the next post]
 
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