Snorrius
Librivorator
Well, they got civilization. After ridding off "oppression" and "exploitation" they got a lot of suffering in form of numerous left singularities and plain despotisms. Let's kill millions for the sake of democracy!
The Essence of the Left
- Thread starter Snorrius
- Start date
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
A world revolution sounds like a great idea, until you realise that there's been at least 2 attempts for that plus all that business in the late 60s. Was it not for the CIA inventing LSD, USA would be probably gone. I tell you, and the ones that the revolutionaries revolted against always lived on.
Dunno man. I doubt you'd believe that living in Congo with the Belgians would be very pleasant. Would you believe that they'd find the gifts of Western civilization very pleasant?
Dunno man. I doubt you'd believe that living in Congo with the Belgians would be very pleasant. Would you believe that they'd find the gifts of Western civilization very pleasant?
Snorrius
Librivorator
What we know for sure is that under Belgian administration (when Congo became a proper colony of Belgium) Congo fared excellent comparing to what followed when they got independence and followed usual democratic route for new nations. Personally, I suspect that in relative terms even Leopold's time was better than when they were left to their own democracies.
I've heard many people argue for the merits of enlightened colonial governments, but the Belgian Congo? That's somewhat bold.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
The population was handed to him, no doubt.
Viregel
, The Rt. Hon.
"Congo fared excellently." Congo got absolutely no benefit from being ruled by Leopold, given he would have got all profit; at the end of the day, Congo would have done far better if they'd been left alone, I'd assume. It's only in the state it is now because of Belgium, and even then, it's at least marginally better when the ones ruling over you don't treat you as an inferior race. I'd say it's genuinely better off now that it was under Belgian rule, even though that's not saying much.
Yes, I did hear that whenever his administrators needed to gather some rubber, people always gave them a hand.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
They sure got a hand on the rubber trade.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Linkman226
#anarchy
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I am getting the impression you have no clue what capitalism is.
Oh piss the <snip> off, degenerate swine. No one cares for your masturbatory imperialist fantasies.
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And the exploitation of their persons.
Oh, the poor savages! Yoorup must liberate them of their savagery! What a heavy burden to bear!
Too soooon!
Snorrius
Librivorator
There was three periods in history of Congo we discuss. The Leopold's infamous rule which was not marked by particular enlightenment is called as "Congo Free State" (it was not a colony but -- unsurprisefully -- "free" state). The period between CFS and "independence" was usual colonial rule -- probably, not the best (British were much better colonizers), but much better what was achieved by trying to implement democracy there. And as I said - reading about depths of human suffering reached by post-colonial Congo makes me think that even Leopold is better than this.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
I'm not sure that "well, we were terrible but so were they" is an exactly valid argument.
Linkman226
#anarchy
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Oh my god, a bona fide barbarian. Will someone please invade Snorrius' home and bring civilization to this primitive?
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gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Maybe their pyramid of hands initial idea didn't go as well as intended, so they decided to stick to the classics.
Linkman226
#anarchy
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A socio-economic system based especially on private ownership of the means of production and the exploitation of the labor force.
Snorrius
Librivorator
It depends on your metrics. If you consider "equality" as "goal and end in itself" -- than, sure, Beligian rule was bad, and current leftist paradise is much more close to this goal. Modern Congo much better reflects the essence of the left, no doubts.
On the other side, if you base you opinion on efficiency of the government in delivering public services, providing security etc than it is quite clear that Belgian colonial administration was better than both periods before and after when Congo was and is "free".
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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Ochlocracy. Hmm. Yeah. Nice new word for my collection.
Linkman - Not sure that's a good definition - it covers serfdom, conscript labour and chattel slavery, for example.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
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When does something become 'exploitive', especially with regards to the labor force?
When I did janitorial work over the summer was I being exploited?
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