The Essence of the Left

[Linkman226]

That's weird. So, you're supporting something that would eventually lead to the death of billions, and you're trying to make people believe it has a lot to teach us?

I literally just said that I don't support returning to a hunter-gatherer society. That doesn't mean we can't learn from it.

So are things like prosperity and security, though. The whole point of having a state is that we give up a little liberty to gain a little security. Removing a state is, by definition, taking back that liberty and gambling it out in a different way - we've already thrown the dice with our states, and by and large they're working for now, though that's not to say that all states are perfect or even satisfactory. It's not so much that a stateless society cannot provide safety and comfort and more that we know that a stated one can, and the outcome of getting rid of it is uncertain at best.

You think the any Western country would be a remotely prosperous nation if not for the wholesale rape of the third world? States are built on violence and must be maintained by violence.

 

[Linkman226]

I think studying hunter-gathering societies, and gardening non-state controlled societies like Papua New Guinea, tells us they don't manage conflict very well. Sure, sometimes they do, but mostly they exist in an almost continuous state of warfare with their neighbours, in a continually shifting system of alliances.

Which is pretty much how states manage things, too. Or have done in the past. Overall, there seems to be a trend towards greater peace.

Yea, this is a myth.

inb4 you quote that hack Pinker and his garbage book

 

[Pangur Bán]

What about tribemen who attack settlements? Is it a crime or not?

It's an ideological or political thing, so would be completely dependent on who you asked. The state authorities with responsibility for those settlements might classify it as 'war', 'raiding' or 'crime' depending on how they imagined their relationships with those 'tribesmen' or on how inclined they were to do anything about it.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Yes, but you see, the lessons of hunter-gatherer society also assume the existence of one. In other words, without a working sample, we cannot prove whether this might work or not.

 

[Flying Pig]

You think the any Western country would be a remotely prosperous nation if not for the wholesale rape of the third world? States are built on violence and must be maintained by violence.

How do you propose that removing the governments of western countries would stop people from exploiting third-world labour?

 

[Linkman226]

Yes, but you see, the lessons of hunter-gatherer society also assume the existence of one. In other words, without a working sample, we cannot prove whether this might work or not.

Are you saying hunter gatherer societies 1. don't exist now 2. haven't existed ever?

How do you propose that removing the governments of western countries would stop people from exploiting third-world labour?

Anarchists generally believe in global revolution. Simply having anarchism in one part of the world would hardly be a worthwhile goal (although it would be preferable to the status quo)

 

[Borachio]

Yea, this is a myth.

inb4 you quote that hack Pinker and his garbage book

Which bit is a myth?

The trend towards greater peace recently? Should be fairly easy to determine: just add up the number of casualties of war in the world per year, and draw a graph.

Or the observation that stone age cultures don't handle conflict between - what shall we call them? - neighbouring settlements very well?

 

[gay_Aleks]

Currently, no. They do not exist.

And what little we know of them is pretty close to not knowing whether they even existed. Currently, we are only theorising.

 

[Linkman226]

Which bit is a myth?

The trend towards greater peace recently? Should be fairly easy to determine: just add up the number of casualties of war in the world per year, and draw a graph.

Or the observation that stone age cultures don't handle conflict between - what shall we call them? - neighbouring settlements?

Regarding the first part, it's really not that simple.
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/16880-the-case-of-the-brutal-savage-poirot-or-clouseau-or-why-steven-pinker-like-jared-diamond-is-wrong

Regarding the second part, I brought up hunter-gatherer societies as models for INTER-group dispute resolution, etc. But even the violence between groups is greatly overstated.

 

[Borachio]

Pretty sure they do exist.

Just for one example.

Very quickly disappearing, though. And sure, they're "encountering civilization" more and more.

 

[Pangur Bán]

I think studying hunter-gathering societies, and gardening non-state controlled societies like Papua New Guinea, tells us they don't manage conflict very well. Sure, sometimes they do, but mostly they exist in an almost continuous state of warfare with their neighbours, in a continually shifting system of alliances.

That's our society too. We're currently experiencing the pax americana which has brought peace to much of the world and limited the potential for medium scale international warfare. The powerful extract resources from the weak through capitalism rather than warfare, but that system wouldn't be possible without the overwhelming military dominance of the USA.

 

[Linkman226]

Pretty sure they do exist.

Just for one example.

Very quickly disappearing, though.

Yea, that's what I'm saying.

 

[Snorrius]

Equality is an end in and of itself.

L'essence de la Gauche by Pol Pot. Coming out every year since French Revolution!

This is a great demonstration for the thesis of the opening post.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Or, if anything, the thesis for some far-left movements that have their supporters, but aren't important enough to be an identify for the entire Left.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm not sure you can really lump anarchists in with 'left' or 'right' - conventional politics is disagreement about how the state should work, after all. If anything, it's living proof that there are people sufficiently out-there for the American right to laugh at them.

 

[Linkman226]

L'essence de la Gauche by Pol Pot. Coming out every year since French Revolution!

This is a great demonstration for the thesis of the opening post.

You do realize that statist communism is diametrically opposed to anarchism right? No one has killed more anarchists than statist communists.

Also, the French Revolution was a liberal movement. Seriously, dude, how can any one person be this historically and politically unaware?

I'm not sure you can really lump anarchists in with 'left' or 'right' - conventional politics is disagreement about how the state should work, after all. If anything, it's living proof that there are people sufficiently out-there for the American right to laugh at them.

Are you really implying that anarchism is laughable?

And no, anarchism is a leftist philosophy.

 

[John Walker]

Coming back to Linkman226's "capitalism is the source of all evil":

Explain how and why all of this is because of capitalism (even though there is no capitalism in any of these 25 states):


Link to video.

Yes, but you see, the lessons of hunter-gatherer society also assume the existence of one. In other words, without a working sample, we cannot prove whether this might work or not.

What's your problem ???

We have many working samples of hunter-gatherer societies today. Some of them are even still uncontacted.

You can be the one to contact these uncontacted tribes. But make sure no spearpoint hits your head.

Linkman226:

I suggest you visit one of uncontacted peoples and implement your ideal bolshevik society there. Such an experiment.

After 10 years come back here and tell us how it works.

 

[Borachio]

<nvm: I'm thinking>

 

[gay_Aleks]

Coming back to Linkman226's "capitalism is the source of all evil":

Explain how and why all of this is because of capitalism (even though there is no capitalism in any of these 25 states):


Link to video.

Lack of capitalism in these countries does not assume that other countries, having capitalism, don't abuse the aforementioned 25 states.

 

[Linkman226]

> implying you can look at states in isolation
> implying I even want a state
> implying any of those states weren't impacted by imperialism
> implying that these nations aren't impacted by capitalism
> much political analysis. such originality. wow.