The Essence of the Left

[Flying Pig]

Also, the French Revolution was a liberal movement. Seriously, dude, how can any one person be this historically and politically unaware?

Quite what 'the French Revolution' was changed at a remarkable rate, both through time and in different places, and that didn't stop after 'revolutionary France' was all but over.

Are you really implying that anarchism is laughable?

I'm not sure how to say this without sounding rude, but it's difficult not to smile - not in a laugh-out-loud way, but as people who have seen it a lot before - at so much idealism. I'm sympathetic to the philosophical arguments against the state and quite enjoy discussing them, but it's quite funny when worldwide revolution is trotted out as a political programme.

And no, anarchism is a leftist philosophy.

Not sure these chaps would agree with you there.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks capitalism doesn't exist in those 25 states.

How do people manage to buy arms in Eritrea, for instance?

 

[Tahuti]

Not sure these chaps would agree with you there.

I used to be an anarcho-capitalist and I identified it more with the Left than with the Right. Karl Hess can be considered both a Leftist and an Anarcho-Capitalist. The thing with Capitalism is that it was only since Marxism that is considered Right-Wing, yet Anarcho-Capitalists still cling to the traditional views about constitutes the Left.

 

[Flying Pig]

What is the difference, then? I haven't found a satisfactory way of reconciling the general trend towards deregulated markets and regulated morality that you find as you go left to right in conventional politics.

 

[John Walker]

Lack of capitalism in these countries does not assume that other countries, having capitalism, don't abuse the aforementioned 25 states.

They only abuse them by sending them "welfare" and other help. This develops entitlement mentality.

And most of this help anyway goes to their corrupt leaders and governments - most democratically elected.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks capitalism doesn't exist in those 25 states.

How do people manage to buy arms in Eritrea, for instance?

The Red Army was the largest army in the world and it existed in a country where there was no capitalism.

How did they manage to buy arms? What does it even have to do with capitalism?

> implying any of those states weren't impacted by imperialism

Imperialism and capitalism are not related, imperialism existed long before capitalism and it also existed in socialist states.

The Soviet Union was one of the most imperialistic states in history, for example.

> implying that these nations aren't impacted by capitalism

The most prosperous countries on Earth are also the ones most impacted by capitalism. Coincidence ???

 

[Linkman226]

Quite what 'the French Revolution' was changed at a remarkable rate, both through time and in different places, and that didn't stop after 'revolutionary France' was all but over.



I'm not sure how to say this without sounding rude, but it's difficult not to smile - not in a laugh-out-loud way, but as people who have seen it a lot before - at so much idealism. I'm sympathetic to the philosophical arguments against the state and quite enjoy discussing them, but it's quite funny when worldwide revolution is trotted out as a political programme.



Not sure these chaps would agree with you there.

Everything seems idealistic until it happens.

As for "anarcho"-capitalism, it would be better termed anarcho-feudalism, because that's essentially what ancaps want. Private property is impossible without the state.

They only abuse them by sending them "welfare" and other help. This develops entitlement mentality.

And most of this help anyway goes to their corrupt leaders and governments - most democratically elected.

The Red Army was the largest army in the world and it existed in a country where there was no capitalism.

How did they manage to buy arms?

Once again, you are only demonstrating your utter ignorance.

Such countries have been and are being systematically raped by global capitalism.

The notion that the USSR "had no capitalism" is laughable.

 

[John Walker]

Such countries have been and are being systematically raped by global capitalism.

Explain what does it mean "to be raped by global capitalism" and quote evidence that this is taking place in these countries.

In Congo over 500,000 women are being raped annually but I don't think that capitalism is raping them.

Private property is impossible without the state.

Why not ???

 

[Flying Pig]

Private property is entirely conceivable without the state - people could voluntarily agree the distribution of property, and enforce it collectively in the case of theft. No state doesn't mean no order.

 

[Ajidica]

Such countries have been and are being systematically raped by global capitalism.

You can't put all of the problems found in the Third World on a nebulously defined "capitalism". The Great Lakes Wars had little to do with capitalism but were one of the primary reasons for the complete collapse of stability and security in central Africa.
Same goes for the UDI with Rhodesia, which lead to the sorry mess we have today in Zimbabwe.

Many of the 'foreign aid' policies are of questionable use for economic development, but that is more to do with politician's lack of imagination than a malevolent desire.
The actions of Shell in Nigeria and Angola on the other hand....

 

[Linkman226]

Explain what does it mean "to be raped by global capitalism" and quote evidence that this is taking place in these countries.

In Congo over 500,000 women are being raped annually but I don't think that capitalism is raping them.

I'm using the term figuratively of course, but I'm referring to the West's importation of goods produced in conflict regions that funnel money into the hands of warlords and insurgents, as well as goods produced in abysmal conditions by what are essentially slaves.

Why not ???

Considering that's how we started this damn discussion in the first place, it's quite apparent someone's not paying attention.

Before I move on to answering your question, can I safely assume you understand the difference between personal and private property?

 

[Linkman226]

Private property is entirely conceivable without the state - people could voluntarily agree the distribution of property, and enforce it collectively in the case of theft. No state doesn't mean no order.

I said no private property, not no property at all.

You can't put all of the problems found in the Third World on a nebulously defined "capitalism". The Great Lakes Wars had little to do with capitalism but were one of the primary reasons for the complete collapse of stability and security in central Africa.
Same goes for the UDI with Rhodesia, which lead to the sorry mess we have today in Zimbabwe.

The only Great Lakes War google is aware of is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixty_Years'_War.

 

[Ajidica]

I was referring the Africa's World War, the decade-plus long conflict over the collapse of Mobutu in Zaire (sparked off by the Rwandan Genocide and the sanctuary Mobutu offered the genocidaires and the Interahamwe in Zaire) that involved countries all across Africa from Libya to South Africa.

EDIT: Looks like upon googling the more common term in the "Great Lakes Conflict", but I've heard it described any number of ways.

 

[Linkman226]

You don't think Africa's violence today is a legacy of its imperialist past, or that the purchase of mineral resources from such conflict regions by the West funnels money into the hands of violent groups?

 

[Snorrius]

You don't think Africa's violence today is a legacy of its imperialist past?

No sane person will think it is. Africa's current violence is "a legacy" of decolonization and introduction of so-called democracy (which should better be called ochlocracy) in newly-made pseudonation-quasistates.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I think that's what he pretty much said?

 

[Linkman226]

TIL decolonization is possible without colonization.

In any case, with regards to the war we were discussing, a big part of why it started was Hutu-Tutsi tension, which was exacerbated by (indeed, it's possible the ethnic divide was completely fabricated by), you guessed it, the Belgians.

 

[Ajidica]

You know, I'm getting the impression that you are using "Capitalism" to mean "anything I don't like" rather than as a useful descriptor of a coherent socio-political-economic concept.

 

[Snorrius]

I think that's what he pretty much said?

He said this was a legacy of imperialist past. No, imperialism and colonization was a lucky ticket for Africa. Decolonization and introduction of demotic regimes (under name of "democracy") brought innumerable calamities to this region. So, current violence is the legacy of democratic past.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Yes, and by lucky ticket, you mean oppression and then exploitation of their resources. How lucky, these Africans!

 

[Darkflight]

You know, I'm getting the impression that you are using "Capitalism" to mean "anything I don't like" rather than as a useful descriptor of a coherent socio-political-economic concept.

Considering the OP is basically saying "the leftists are all mass murderers" I don't think it is fair to blame anyone for making absurd claims.