The Essence of the Left

[Snorrius]

What sort of leftists live in Russia? Who are you basing your misunderstanding of "leftism" and "leftists" on?

The main thing which divide Left from Sanity is the belief to Equality. The more Left ideology is, the more it want to equalize. After claiming that elites are equal to ochlos, man to women, one culture to anyone other, that everyone of mankind is equal to each other, the next step is to claim humans are equal to any other specie.

 

[luiz]

Yup.

Evidence? Do you have the memo in which Big Capitalists plotted to get Mussolini in power? Any concrete evidence whatsoever to indicate that Mussolini was not really the one in charge?

Nope.

It's exactly the same thing. You don't have any concrete evidence on your (conspiracy) theory.

I wonder if there isn't a single thing you know about history that didn't come from the gen-ed boiled-down pop narrative. That big business benefited enormously under fascism and that fascist governments were extremely pro-business and anti-worker is so well-known that it's plainly obvious that you don't study it. At all. Again, please read some study of the issue, like Wages of Destruction. I realize that you think everyone who disagrees with you (or who at least agrees with me) is some kind of Stalinist Professional Falsifier Apologist, but they really aren't. That you think they are shows how little you actually know about the topic and how much research you haven't done.

That's conspiracy theory logic at its finest. So if (some, not all) big business profited under Fascism that is somehow proof that big business were actually in charge?? Really? You can't expect your target audience to be this stupid.

Some big business also profited from Chávez's government. Is Chávez a pawn of big business? Are Capitalists secretly behind the Bolivarian Revolution?

Mussolini and Hitler were ultimately horrible for business in their countries. Lots of rich people lost everything they had because of them, and I'm not talking about Jews. If Big Business were in charge there would be no WW2. This is so obvious, so elementary, that only a communist would even think of suggesting otherwise.

I love how at the beginning of the post, you think the idea of a vast conspiracy is ludicrous and compare the idea to anti-semitic theories, but by the end of the post, you're accusing me of being part of some high-controlled conspiracy.

Oh it's not a conspiracy. You're just told to shut up about certain topics. Like Stalin deporting communists to the Nazis. Because it doesn't fit your little made up narrative.

 

[jackelgull]

Big businesses may not have been in charge, but they still profited from fascism far more than the worker did. Fascists broke up strikes and jailed union leaders. I certainly don't hear about big businesses being given the same treatment.

 

[gay_Aleks]

To be fair, putting in a charismatic man like Hitler at the head of an industrial country like Germany is a good idea for Big Business.

The whole war declaration, slightly less so.

 

[warpus]

The main thing which divide Left from Sanity is the belief to Equality. The more Left ideology is, the more it want to equalize. After claiming that elites are equal to ochlos, man to women, one culture to anyone other, that everyone of mankind is equal to each other, the next step is to claim humans are equal to any other specie.

Ah, so you're sort of making all of this up as you go along, I see.

Good that you're at least honest about it, I guess.

 

[Snorrius]

Ah, so you're sort of making all of this up as you go along, I see.

No, it is just you who are lagging behind.

 

[useless]

This entire thread is basically a giant strawman of what Snorrius things the "Left" is and constitutes.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I thought it's a giant debate of the essence of the direction left.

For, like, 10 pages.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

No, it is just you who are lagging behind.

Peta is a fringe group.

However, I think you are correct that there is a certain willingness within the political left to overlook differences. While there is a certain willingness within the political right to over-emphasize differences. Political ideologies lack adequate differentiation. Wow, what else is new?
However, you may also have noticed that in very fundamental ways the political left has extremely moderated itself since WWII. If you have not noticed so, then you appear to have virtually no idea what you are talking about.

Also, Snorrius, after you seem to have had a good time in this thread - I am curious how serious you take any of this.

 

[luiz]

Big businesses may not have been in charge, but they still profited from fascism far more than the worker did. Fascists broke up strikes and jailed union leaders. I certainly don't hear about big businesses being given the same treatment.

The fact they profited (again, not all did) is not proof that they were in charge. This is prime tinfoil hat logic.

Also, note that both Hitler and Mussolini were ultimately disastrous for their country's business, big and small. Rich people were ruined by the scores as a direct consequence of their policies.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Evidence? Do you have the memo in which Big Capitalists plotted to get Mussolini in power? Any concrete evidence whatsoever to indicate that Mussolini was not really the one in charge?


It's exactly the same thing. You don't have any concrete evidence on your (conspiracy) theory.

As I said, look who benefited. The capitalists got everything they wanted: an end to the threat of organized labour and the radical left; government protection and patronage; the dramatic lowering of corporate taxes, estate taxes, and other restrictions on the wealth accumulated by the rich; and most of all, the blame pointed away from them for that pesky "class conflict" thing.

That's conspiracy theory logic at its finest. So if (some, not all) big business profited under Fascism that is somehow proof that big business were actually in charge?? Really? You can't expect your target audience to be this stupid.

I don't, which is why I'm surprised that you twisted my message far enough to think that this is what it is...

Some big business also profited from Chávez's government. Is Chávez a pawn of big business? Are Capitalists secretly behind the Bolivarian Revolution?

Chavez did come to power with the endorsement of the Venezuelan bourgeoisie.

Businesses were nationalized in Venezuela and grassroots democracy started by the regime, with union rights expanded and the power of big business curtailed. I realize that you're trying to equate Mussolini and Chavez because in your thoroughly weird mind, they are somehow equal, but it just doesn't work.

Mussolini and Hitler were ultimately horrible for business in their countries. Lots of rich people lost everything they had because of them, and I'm not talking about Jews. If Big Business were in charge there would be no WW2. This is so obvious, so elementary, that only a communist would even think of suggesting otherwise.

War is the best thing that can happen to wartime industries, and to industries that can be converted to wartime materials. You really must be trolling now, the government spending that resulted from the lead-up to, and the waging of, World War 2 is what finally ended the Great Depression in every country that participated, from the US to Germany.

Oh it's not a conspiracy. You're just told to shut up about certain topics. Like Stalin deporting communists to the Nazis. Because it doesn't fit your little made up narrative.

Who tells me to do this? What do I care that Stalin did that? He also had the rest of the Polish Communist Party liquidated because he thought they were Nazi spies. He was a bastard and a disaster for European communism, when did I ever say otherwise? And when did my opinion and Stalin's reputation become the same thing? Are you even capable of responding to a post of mine without turning it into an insulting and personal tirade?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Who tells me to do this? What do I care that Stalin did that? He also had the rest of the Polish Communist Party liquidated because he thought they were Nazi spies. He was a bastard and a disaster for European communism, when did I ever say otherwise?

I never got into the habit of archiving quotes from you for later use, but I could have sworn that you did say otherwise.
That was quit a surprise for me to read in any case.
I recall you saying something like that Stalin had to work with a difficult situation and then emphasizing his successes etcetera. And while both may not be 'false', they did sound like you were basically saying that while Stalin was not perfect, he certainly wasn't a 'disaster' either. But okay.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I never got into the habit of achieving quotes from you for later use, but I could have sworn and that you did say otherwise.
That was quit a suprise for me to read in any case.

I said disaster for European communism, not a disaster for the USSR.

And I also don't think he was a disaster for the same reasons either of you do.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I kinda counted the Soviet Union as European, my bad.

 

[Snorrius]

Peta is a fringe group.

That's true. But they are a fringe group now. This is exactly what I am talking about: there was a time when the idea of all male should have right to vote was fringe, then there was a time when feminists was a fringe group, and so on. The world is going more and more to the Left, trying to reach the Equality ideal. I, as my fellow comrades from the Reaction, do not like this direction because we consider it to be incompatible with our values: civilization, culture and liberty. They can co-exist for some time, of course, in some proportion, but the more left you go, less of this three you get.

However, you may also have noticed that in very fundamental ways the political left has extremely moderated itself since WWII. If you have not noticed so, then you appear to have virtually no idea what you are talking about.

Could you point out how exactly it has moderated?

Also, Snorrius, after you seem to have had a good time in this thread - I am curious how serious you take any of this.

Well, my disbelief in existence of equality and non-allegiance to the religion of egalitarianism is honest. But this is a gaming internet-forum, there are certain bounds to how one should be serious in place like this. I serve my views with certain dose of humour and irony and try to make the whole experience for those who participate to be enjoyable and memorable. I do appreciate the discussion - it helps me to refine my own thoughts on this issues.

 

[luiz]

As I said, look who benefited. The capitalists got everything they wanted: an end to the threat of organized labour and the radical left; government protection and patronage; the dramatic lowering of corporate taxes, estate taxes, and other restrictions on the wealth accumulated by the rich; and most of all, the blame pointed away from them for that pesky "class conflict" thing.

The fact that one profited does not mean that one was in charge. This is silly conspiracy logic. If you want to argue that Mussolini was a pawn of big business, you must produce evidence of that. Just pointing out that some (not all) big business profited proves exactly nothing.

I don't, which is why I'm surprised that you twisted my message far enough to think that this is what it is...

You did say Mussolini was a pawn of big business, and the only evidence you presented was that (some) big business profited under his rule. That's taking your audience for idiots.

Chavez did come to power with the endorsement of the Venezuelan bourgeoisie.

Businesses were nationalized in Venezuela and grassroots democracy started by the regime, with union rights expanded and the power of big business curtailed. I realize that you're trying to equate Mussolini and Chavez because in your thoroughly weird mind, they are somehow equal, but it just doesn't work.

Chávez came to power with support from large segments of middle class, which he later alienated. But not big business.

My point is that some (not all) big business did and continue to make a huge profit under Chávez and Maduro. This is not proof that they're in charge. They aren't. Chávez was in charge, just as Mussolini was in charge. That their policies may benefit some industrialists, and that they may make alliances of occasion with this or that sector, is neither here nor there.

War is the best thing that can happen to wartime industries, and to industries that can be converted to wartime materials. You really must be trolling now, the government spending that resulted from the lead-up to, and the waging of, World War 2 is what finally ended the Great Depression in every country that participated, from the US to Germany.

War is horrible for business in general. Sure, some few industries profit handsomely, but for most it is a disaster.

A frankly suicidal war against much of the world such as Hitler launched is not only horrible but a complete and utter disaster for business. As I said, a lot of rich businessmen and prosperous farmers were utterly ruined as a direct result of Hitler's and Mussolini's policies. How to claim that they were "good for business"?

If Big Business had it their way Germany would never, ever, go to war against the Western Allies. Banks in particular hate wars. The whole international financial elite was firmly against Hitler, and I'm not talking of any Jewish conspiracy here.

Who tells me to do this? What do I care that Stalin did that? He also had the rest of the Polish Communist Party liquidated because he thought they were Nazi spies. He was a bastard and a disaster for European communism, when did I ever say otherwise? And when did my opinion and Stalin's reputation become the same thing? Are you even capable of responding to a post of mine without turning it into an insulting and personal tirade?

Well your opinion of Stalin seems to shift on a bi-weekly basis so excuse me if my post didn't reflect your latest take on the subject.

 

[jackelgull]

The main thing which divide Left from Sanity is the belief to Equality. The more Left ideology is, the more it want to equalize. After claiming that elites are equal to ochlos, man to women, one culture to anyone other, that everyone of mankind is equal to each other, the next step is to claim humans are equal to any other specie.

So you believe that equality is a bad thing huh? I accept that cultures and people have the right to be different, but unequal? That strikes the wrong cord with me. So how would you decide who is inherently unequal? Who gets what? Do you believe there should be an aristocracy that receives everything regardless of birth, with better treatment from the law and more opportunity, regardless of skill? How inequal do want society to be? I suspect no sane person would want to live under what you consider the ideal world.
I also suspect it would be impossible to construct a modern nation state around the social institutions you consider important.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That's true. But they are a fringe group now. This is exactly what I am talking about: there was a time when the idea of all male should have right to vote was fringe, then there was a time when feminists was a fringe group, and so on.

What about all the multitude of fringe groups who are many more in number who withered away? What you are exactly talking about is cherry picking from fringe groups.

What you will find is the fringe groups you are talking about had a socially supported point to make and this is the reason they became mainstream.

It's like that joke.
"You can laugh at me, but remember they also laughed at Copernicus".
"Yeah, but they also laughed at a lot of idiots".

 

[jackelgull]

The fact they profited (again, not all did) is not proof that they were in charge. This is prime tinfoil hat logic.

Also, note that both Hitler and Mussolini were ultimately disastrous for their country's business, big and small. Rich people were ruined by the scores as a direct consequence of their policies.

I am not saying that they were in charge. What I am saying is that the fascists supported big businesses and cultivated them as a base of support in opposition to the traditional socialist base of support- the industrial workers. Their policies were ultimately ruinous for business, but the thought was that ultimately businesses were important for a nation as a whole and should be supported at the expense of workers. No one could have predicted how horribly disastrous Hitler's foreign policy would end up being for German business; indeed there was a time that it seemed as if Germany would rule all of Europe.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Careful, that kind of talk will get you labeled a Stalinist Falsifier.