The European Project: the future of the EU.

[Hrothbern]

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-trade-chief-hogan-clings-on-amid-scandal-over-galway-golf-dinner/

National Irish: Agriculture Minister: Dara Calleary resigns
European: Trade Minister: Phil Hogan stays on.

One moral code for the nationally elected politician, another for the unelected Eurocrat.

Has nothing to do with elected or unelected

Phil Hogan is a high ranking civil servant and as such reputational damage to him is reputational damage to his boss and the entity he works for affecting the integrity of Covid policies.

And he should be fired imo regardless his qualities for his function or his "importance".

I want the precedent effect as well for other feeble officials.
You start cleaning the stairs from the top steps.

 

[Gorbles]

Europe's problems can only be resolved after we do away with the European Union and restore fully functioning democracies in our countries.

Unfortunately, these are two separate points. And you cannot link the former to the latter - all you can do (as you do) is repeatedly play up the problems the EU causes (in order to argue for the former).

Which you're free to do so, don't get me wrong. But you're tacking on position consequences you can't guarantee. There is absolutely no indication that, for example, the UK would be able to break its increasing two-party system now that it has legally withdrawn from the EU. Voter disenfranchisement is happening faster than I thought it would. How would you go about repairing that democracy, given that the prerequisite has been fulfilled (for the UK specifically)?

 

[EnglishEdward]

Voter disenfranchisement is happening faster than I thought it would.

Is this about UK citizens being unable to vote for the EU Parliament OR is it about voter disenfranchisement in the UK itself?

 

[mitsho]

I allowed myself to correct the terms in your quote below:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-trade-chief-hogan-clings-on-amid-scandal-over-galway-golf-dinner/

National Irish: Agriculture Minister: Dara Calleary resigns
European: Trade Minister: Phil Hogan stays on.

One moral code for the nationally elected politician, another for the unelected Eurocrat -> indirectly elected European politician.

And yes, it's not nice that there is this difference. But the answer to that is more Europe for me, to create a European public space that can put pressure on these kinds of politicians. The thing is though, what they did doesn't seem to me to be worthy of having to step down to me - but then these are my personal and national sensibilities. Which is why we need these Europe-wide media space. I don't know about you, but I have stopped following the Corona-News. I have no idea about the numbers in France, Estonia, Bulgaria - I even have problems to follow the exact numbers in my own country. What I know about what's happening in the British Isles is because I follow that other thread in this forum, but this skews the impression as the UK and Ireland just aren't that important for Europe (or their importance is skewed as they speak in a language known to most people).

So that's where I see the problem, not in the case that one politician stepped down and another one didn't.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I have stopped following the Corona-News. I have no idea about the numbers in France, Estonia, Bulgaria - I even have problems to follow the exact numbers in my own country.

Yes, it is not encouraging; and keeping up to date with inaccurate guestimates hardly seems worthwhile. I don't think I'd bother if I was working.

the UK and Ireland just aren't that important for Europe

I agree. But there is no Irish thread here to post it in.

As an islander, I am not sure what that European public space is or would be.

 

[Gorbles]

Is this about UK citizens being unable to vote for the EU Parliament OR is it about voter disenfranchisement in the UK itself?

The latter.

Beisdes, we always got to vote our MEPs; the last election for that was held in 2019. I guess if you make the distinction that the European election was for the party rather than an individual candidate, sure, but that goes back to another thread (trusting your government / party), rather than any specific fault of the EU. There are pros and cons to voting for an individual vs. voting for the party in general, but this probably isn't the thread for it.

 

[Zardnaar]

The latter.

Beisdes, we always got to vote our MEPs; the last election for that was held in 2019. I guess if you make the distinction that the European election was for the party rather than an individual candidate, sure, but that goes back to another thread (trusting your government / party), rather than any specific fault of the EU. There are pros and cons to voting for an individual vs. voting for the party in general, but this probably isn't the thread for it.

What's the UK up to? Didn't the current ass clowns win the popular vote?

BoJo/Bozo the Clown didn't win election but his party did.

 

[Gorbles]

What's the UK up to? Didn't the current ass clowns win the popular vote?

BoJo/Bozo the Clown didn't win election but his party did.

Probably best-served in the UK Politics thread. The voter disenfranchisement I was on about has various roots, from the Liberal Democrats, to the laughable Change UK nonsense, through to the Labour Party actively sabotaging itself so that the socialists wouldn't look good. Ironically, the one block that's probably best-insulated from this as classic / heartland Tory voters. Brexit might have been a temporarily-polarising issue, but we've also been through the pandemic now, which the Tories leveraged for maximum PR (as anyone would expect them to).

 

[innonimatu]

To be honest the election was up for grabs in the UK, it had the most open and diverse choice of parties with a chance of election MPs in 50 years. It was the leaders of several parties who screwed up and just handed Boris Johnson an overwhelming victory. The UK's political system, and its voters, had their choices. And it will have it again in a few year's time.
No one forced Corbyn to be a whimp in dealing with internal sabotage. Boris certainly showed how that could be dealt with.

Unfortunately, these are two separate points. And you cannot link the former to the latter - all you can do (as you do) is repeatedly play up the problems the EU causes (in order to argue for the former).

I think I just happened to reply to that on the other thread: the EU is dangerous for europeans because it prevents adaptive change and experimentation. It's all about protecting privileges, and has been taking over by the upper castes of its member states. Their privileges. The reduction of democratic choice is not a bug, it's a desired feature. But suppressing choices (and diverse experimentation) brings hell to pay when change cannot be contained any longer.

 

[mitsho]

Yes, it is not encouraging; and keeping up to date with inaccurate guestimates hardly seems worthwhile. I don't think I'd bother if I was working.

Exactly.

I agree. But there is no Irish thread here to post it in.

As an islander, I am not sure what that European public space is or would be.

Like it or not, you still belong to Europe. ;-) The European public space would be the synchronizing of media cycles all over Europe. For example, that story about that Irish European Commissioner just reached my ears (https://srv.deutschlandradio.de/dlf-audiothek-audio-teilen.3265.de.html?mdm:audio_id=858006), a few days later than you posted it. Now the question is whether it's big topics (like EU summits, new laws or big social issues) or such small short scandals (like #golfgate) that are more important. Coronavirus and the reaction to it is a good study example, as is f.e. how the black lives matter protests lead to discussions on racism in the different european countries.

But exactly that's the point: that discussion came from outside. They need to come organically from within Europe. #golfgate on the other hand will be over as soon as Hogan (is forced to) retire(s).

 

[EnglishEdward]

The European public space would be the synchronizing of media cycles all over Europe.

I watch the english language version of Euronews on the cable Television,
which seems to me to be the nearest approximation to that public space.

To be honest I find Euronews and Al Jazeera are often better
quality than the BBC or Sky News.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think it is pretty interesting the presidency of the european union is now german, and they couldn't care less about open threats of war against a member country of the Eu, by a lunatic who celebrates the victory at... Matzikert, in 1071.
Doesn't at all remind one of Hitler. Hopefully when war happens it will be the end of this idiocy, and I hope not just regarding Turkey, but also the beyond ludicrous german hegemony in Europe.

I also think the turkish fleet should have been sunk weeks ago, an act for which fortunately Greece needs no help. Clearly this is the only end to this farce.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I think I just happened to reply to that on the other thread: the EU is dangerous for europeans because it prevents adaptive change and experimentation.

EU's answer to coronavirus crisis has disproven that. As a matter of fact, the world is rapidly changing and the EU does as well:

• China's take over as the 1st superpower is imminent and nothing can be done against it.
• The US has to deal with a new situation in which Asia-Pacific has turned more strategic than Europe.
• Brexit liberated Europe from its most obstructive member, giving more freedom to the EU27 in order to quickly adapt.

We're in a new era innonimatu, and your mind is still stuck in the 20th century.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I think it is pretty interesting the presidency of the european union is now german, and they couldn't care less about open threats of war against a member country of the Eu, by a lunatic who celebrates the victory at... Matzikert, in 1071.
Doesn't at all remind one of Hitler. Hopefully when war happens it will be the end of this idiocy, and I hope not just regarding Turkey, but also the beyond ludicrous german hegemony in Europe.

I also think the turkish fleet should have been sunk weeks ago, an act for which fortunately Greece needs no help. Clearly this is the only end to this farce.

Europe is militiarily toothless because European members themselves wanted it so in putting all their strategic interests in NATO's hands. And Turkey is part of NATO.

The only way to change that would be to go for an EU defence that would allow us to protect the fundamental strategic interests of EU members, but we're far from being ready for that yet. The issue is that comments like "a European military would favor excessively France" are still considered valid enough by most Europeans to justify maintaining the current situation you're denouncing.

This situation is the direct result of European countries (lack of) military policies, it's only up to them to change.

 

[Kyriakos]

Europe is militiarily toothless because European members themselves wanted it so in putting all their strategic interests in NATO's hands. And Turkey is part of NATO.

The only way to change that would be to go for an EU defence that would allow us to protect the fundamental strategic interests of EU members, but we're far from being ready for that yet. The issue is that comments like "a European military would favor excessively France" are still considered valid enough by most Europeans to justify the current situation you denounce.

This is the direct result of European countries (lack of) military policies, it's only up to them to change.

There aren't that many eu countries which have armies to speak of. Some virtually have no army.
It doesn't need to be an army where all the eu has a say or control, just a pact.

 

[Marla_Singer]

There aren't that many eu countries which have armies to speak of. Some virtually have no army.
It doesn't need to be an army where all the eu has a say or control.

Indeed, we agree on that. However, sharing costs between larger countries to build and operate a shared EU projection force would be really helpful, because France can't do it all alone.

 

[mitsho]

I watch the english language version of Euronews on the cable Television,
which seems to me to be the nearest approximation to that public space.

To be honest I find Euronews and Al Jazeera are often better
quality than the BBC or Sky News.

Yes, euronews is good and is precisely trying to achieve that. However, their reach is rather limited. But then we live in the times of a decline of media organisations, so...

I think it is pretty interesting the presidency of the european union is now german, and they couldn't care less about open threats of war against a member country of the Eu, by a lunatic who celebrates the victory at... Matzikert, in 1071.
Doesn't at all remind one of Hitler. Hopefully when war happens it will be the end of this idiocy, and I hope not just regarding Turkey, but also the beyond ludicrous german hegemony in Europe.

I also think the turkish fleet should have been sunk weeks ago, an act for which fortunately Greece needs no help. Clearly this is the only end to this farce.

Indeed, we agree on that. However, sharing costs between larger countries to build and operate a shared EU projection force would be really helpful, because France can't do it all alone.

Rather interesting going from the first quote to the second in a matter of a few posts. I don't know, the whole situation just looks to me like posturing and blustering with no real threat of a war breaking out (for that see Belarus). So let them bluster, it's what the EU does. It be better to be more active, but for that one needs a common defense policy, be it with an army or a more stringent foreign directive. So I agree with you both there. But without such an army/common threat mechanism, what the EU does is the right thing in my mind: just wait it out.

 

[r16]

so , ı hear the French have been selling 12 Rafales to some peoples somewhere in the Mediterranean for all the effort they spent in defence of Liberty and Freedom and Fraternity and Dignity of Mankind . And somewhat in isolation people are speaking . For the next step , which is the invasion and destruction of lran , which was imposed on America by the difficulties of bayonet fighting with a bunch of losers , Arab countries must be made loveable (as Allies) which means they have to make peace with lsrael which means there has to be some bogeyman to force Arab countries to do so which means the same bogeyman should have undisputed control at home which means Ankara navtexes Athens' navtex that had navtexed Ankara's and so on and onion like one layer comes over another . Won't our dear allies in NATO , namely them Greeks like shut up ? Now that Malazgirt celebrations are a celebration of the new palace built on location and some other defeat of Greeks closer in time (say 1922) will not be celebrated because Coronavirus ... Yes , Greece will do exactly nothing because EU and USA will be very cross if anything happens to New Turkey ... Still better off they are , a few years ago all them Arab Countries pressed Berlin to force Athens to sell all the islands in the Aegean so that the Arab countries could dry our treasury as go betweens and refuse to turn them over , too ...

 

[Hrothbern]

Phil Hogan resigns because of the golf-gate scandal.

Unprofessional PR management of Ursula von der Leyen imo to let it take that long... let it capturing the newsmedia headlines that long.

https://www.politico.eu/article/phil-hogan-resigns-as-eu-trade-boss-over-golfgate-scandal/

 

[mitsho]

Could she have fired him? Calling for his resignation and then Ireland's Government continuing to back him would have looked worse for her I think. The Commission is not a government after all, it functions by different rules. Public Opinion isn't the most important thing for von der Leyen, there could have been any other "Brussels-interior" reasons for her lateness - not wanting to having to reshuffle her commission posts for example.