The European Union

Ok. We need to explain to him, though, how a country can still have leaders not voted in via referendum. Your Theresa May is in a very similar position, legislatively, as Matteo Renzi.

And she should have called a general election.

Politicians who fear elections because pools do not guarantee them a better result are failed politicians. They do not trust their own proposals, their own ability to win the voters.
Renzi, mind you, did call this referendum but only because he had to, and pools gave him about 70% favorable votes when he called it. Now he and his acolytes are busy planning how to change the electoral law they themselves approved, because they fear of losing the next election.
 
The referendum was a promise he made when he became prime minister. TBH the constant political instability in Italy is a problem, and on the one recent occasion where it was useful to have a safeguard against a PM (during the Berlusconi years) the system didn't work as it should have. I think a reform was/is necessary (although maybe not this one)
 
@innonimatu
Great globalization post. A bit too edgy in parts for my taste, but I really liked how you worked out the principle issue. However, what is the alternative? That alternative can only be protectionism. You can only take back national control of your economy by re-nationalizing it. And you can only do that by favoring domestic providers / blocking foreign ones.
Is this the vision you have? Economic powerhouses like the EU and the USA re-nationalizing their economies? Hm... I have to admit one thing. The most important reason why protectionism is viewed as an economic death-nail is that if you are the only one doing it, others are bound to cut you out of the world economy. But if "everyone" is doing it (or simply the economic power-houses) there is no one left to cut you out...

Really, I am not sure what to think of this. But if such a thing could work, it is clear that our political elites would have to be forced into that direction. Because they are pathologically unable to develop new visions for society, and they are twice as unable when those visions require a global approach. They just run with the rhythm of the world and try to adapt.
 
Hm... I have to admit one thing. The most important reason why protectionism is viewed as an economic death-nail is that if you are the only one doing it, others are bound to cut you out of the world economy. But if "everyone" is doing it (or simply the economic power-houses) there is no one left to cut you out...
Which is why the EU is not only good, but needed - as I said before, a bunch of small and weak states can't resist the economic pressure, but a unified EU could enforce such a thing, or at least survive it.
 
Of course one could make a point that even if the EU did not exist there would have not been a war. Certainly, that might be true. But it would be hard to make an argument that the EU is not at the very least a big deterrent for any martial actions taken in Europe, no? I think it was Zizek that said in times of perceived "crisis", financial crisis, refugee crisis, political crisis, the values that the EU upholds or used to uphold gain even more significance. We should stand for a strong Europe, which is best protrayed by a strong EU. Now, personally I don't believe in crackpot ideas like "European values", but sometimes you have to uphold a sign even if you don't completely agree. Certainly, unlike some other posters who I won't name here, I am sure that the refugees coming to Europe will embrace some of our values, while maybe shunning others. The most important thing is that we ourselves have to consciously live these values. A parent that tells you one thing, but does another will only make his kid mimic his behaviour.

Well nearly half a century passed between the end of WW2 and the formation of the EU, so I think you can go a bit further than saying that might be true.

Also, how can you say you don't believe in "European values", but then spend the rest of the paragraph talking about refugees adopting these values, natives upholding these values etc?
 
Well nearly half a century passed between the end of WW2 and the formation of the EU, so I think you can go a bit further than saying that might be true.
Actually, more like 10 years. The EU didn't sprout out of nothing in 1995, you know ?
 
@innonimatu
Great globalization post. A bit too edgy in parts for my taste, but I really liked how you worked out the principle issue. However, what is the alternative? That alternative can only be protectionism. You can only take back national control of your economy by re-nationalizing it. And you can only do that by favoring domestic providers / blocking foreign ones.
Is this the vision you have? Economic powerhouses like the EU and the USA re-nationalizing their economies? Hm... I have to admit one thing. The most important reason why protectionism is viewed as an economic death-nail is that if you are the only one doing it, others are bound to cut you out of the world economy. But if "everyone" is doing it (or simply the economic power-houses) there is no one left to cut you out...

Really, I am not sure what to think of this. But if such a thing could work, it is clear that our political elites would have to be forced into that direction. Because they are pathologically unable to develop new visions for society, and they are twice as unable when those visions require a global approach. They just run with the rhythm of the world and try to adapt.
Globalisation, as it currently is, is clearly linked to the rise of neoliberal economic policies, Reagan and Thatcher etc. The economy is getting global scope and function. As an effect politics — which is still national — struggles to mitigate the worst effects, yet tends the get pulled in to "race to the bottom" situations between countries. One "solution" becomes to drop international trade and production as we know them. Another would be to extent the scope of politics. But that would require something a little different from national politics to develop.

Now, Inno blames the EU for all things bad, and everything is grist to that particular mill. Otherwise the extension of politics beyond the scope of small-state politics through the EU could be part of the solution. (Which Inno will vehemently deny, clearly.) Arguably there's always been too little EU to date.
 
I'll try to write a better answer later, short of time now. I just want to say now that I have seen what the hopes of having EU-wide policies to "mitigate" the bad effects of globalizatuon have come to: what we have today. That was the idea, most recently, of Syriza in Greece: wee what they got for it.
The EU is irredeemable, yes. I have considered it, and rejected that possibility as unrealistic. There are issues of principle there, concepts of political theory, but there is also empirical evidence!
 
Which is why the EU is not only good, but needed - as I said before, a bunch of small and weak states can't resist the economic pressure, but a unified EU could enforce such a thing, or at least survive it.
Which is why in most or every rant of mine against the EU - you may have suffered one - I did note that in principle the EU could be the strongest weapon Europeans have to combat the ills of the loss of national power.
But I devoted those rants to how the EU does the opposite. My rule of thumb is simple: To go against the interests of capitalists is hard - so you need a keen responsive public to make the political elite do so nevertheless. There is no European public. Hence - the EU won't do so. Now - after it has become clear beyond doubt that there is a real and strong existential threat to the EU - politicians speak about how the EU also needs to take on social matters. Meaning (while being a bit dramatic to highlight the point): How the EU needs to care about the actual people rather than money. But what will come of it? Nothing in sight yet. Nothing to anticipate, even.
The EU defended its free-trade deals with the US and Canada with handling the loss of national power. With shaping globalization rather than merely caving to it. A potential alternative to protectionism and giving up. But what did this actually mean? Technicalities and some consumer protection. The social angel? Forget it. Hearing the voice of non-profit-organizations? They were not even allowed to know anything about the negotiations. Nor were most of the national parliaments which are at least more responsive to the populace.
I do not doubt that some EU negotiators did some good work to push through European standards. And that this may have meant something good. But overall, it is not even clear weather the free-trade-agreements create any jobs in Europe (because the US got lower social standards), while pro-big-business-orgs are found to flound inflated numbers. Because for big business those agreements are gold. Big business is already international, so anything making that easier is profitable. But as the head of the German institution for economic research, Marcel Fratzscher, recently pointed out, the slogan that what is good for the companies is good for the people holds much less true than it used to. And that is hardly a lefty, but a pro-free-trade-deal guy. Because basically, he can not think of anything else.

But in the end - you may be right. The EU may be our best chance to get anything good done. But the EU is also more a symptom of the times than its cure. And more representative of its ills than a measure to change course.
I said it before and I say it again - there is no functional democracy without a functional public discourse of policy. And while many nations have something or a lot of something to be desired in that area, a European public discourse is NON-EXISTENT.

Though I say all that not even talking about the Euro, another idea initiated by the 10 largest European companies in their neat European lobbying groups. And an idea which even very conservative economists will find easy to attack.
But hey, it got Germany essentially protectionism through the back-door. By devaluing our currency without anyone objecting to it. Because it got adapted to the economies of other, more southern, nations. China also devalues, and Trump whines about it. Not so with Germany.
 
Also while I am at it @EU creates peace.
That is IMO the most pathetic argument of them all. Are you actually seeing a war-scenario or are you just projecting the past to the present? If the later, try do the former and see where it gets you. Nowhere.
The simple and obvious truth is: times have changed. And here are EU proponents trying to take credit for it. This argument I am really sick off. (A) Eurpean people are extremely war-weary. More than ever before in history. (B) European nations got nothing to gain. No popular support, no notions of honor, nothing. We are post-heroic societies with few children, dominated by the mass of other nations and their determination to not allow war, with or without the EU.
The only exception in Europe is Russia, because it is big, relatively strong, at least a semi-dictatorship and most importantly it got atomic weapons en mass. But even Russia riles its people up not with war but with the threat of American politics. And even Russia depends on popular support.
And what keeps Russia at bay? The NATO. But you may have an argument that - in the future - the EU should replace the role of NATO. I concede that much.
 
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You have the argument wrong. Not 'the EU creates peace', it ensures peace. I've never heard anyone claim that the EU 'creates peace'. It exists because of peace.

I have a problem with this logic. With the word appointed specifically. In democracies leaders are elected. Renzi was not elected in the first place. The guy didn't even run in the last general election election!

The powers that be in the EU liked him, of course. They hate democracy.

Most leaders in democracies aren't elected at all. Mr Trump is elected as president by a minority of voters. And leaders being elected doesn't necessarily imply they are leading a democracy either.
 
We europeans can rely on the US to maintain peace in Europe through NATO but as Trump's election proves we shouldn't. The EU keeps Europe at peace because whatever happens with the rest of the world, we europeans can maintain peace in Europe ourself. But for that to be possible we needed to build something together. We needed thousands of erasmus students to study with other Europeans and form a bond with other european countries. We needed our governments to constantly work together through European institutions.

Edit : crossposted with Agent, who is absolutely right
 
One "solution" becomes to drop international trade and production as we know them. Another would be to extent the scope of politics. But that would require something a little different from national politics to develop.
Yeah and all "little different" we got is more of the same old burden, but more clearly distilled. Giving powerful lobbyist send by big business for what they crave.
I see your point of expanding the scope of politics. In a clincal theory - that would be another alternative to protectionism and globalization as it is. It just seems to be bound to also be expanding the scope of apolitical power, and hence just influencing how exactly globalization as it is goes on. Rather than putting a stop to the undesirable effects of it. Which, to remind everyone, is a drastic decoupling of productivity and income in developed nations.
Which is a quit funny thing to even have to point out, given its vast effects.
You have the argument wrong. Not 'the EU creates peace', it ensures peace
Semantics. No relation whatsoever to the argument itself.
We europeans can rely on the US to maintain peace in Europe through NATO but as Trump's election proves we shouldn't. The EU keeps Europe at peace because whatever happens with the rest of the world, we europeans can maintain peace in Europe ourself. But for that to be possible we needed to build something together. We needed thousands of erasmus students to study with other Europeans and form a bond with other european countries. We needed our governments to constantly work together through European institutions.
As conceded before, it is true that there is an argument to be had that NATO can not be relied upon. But that only calls for a European Nato. Not a European Union. The rest is .. pointless sentimentalism Togetherness blablabla. No serious effort to engage with the actual real world. No recognition whatsoever for what you are even as a whole advocating. Basically, fluffy ideological talk lacking any substance.
You may as well tell good-night-stories in a kindergarden.
 
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You completely missed my point. A defensive pact out of self preservation (like NATO) is unreliable. A defensive pact that rises from a feeling of unity between the participants is much stronger. And a defensive pact that has its roots in both is even better. The EU was a necessary first step, and must be an integral part of a european military alliance
 
You completely missed my point. A defensive pact out of self preservation (like NATO) is unreliable. A defensive pact that rises from a feeling of unity between the participants is much stronger. And a defensive pact that has its roots in both is even better. The EU was a necessary first step, and must be an integral part of a european military alliance
As far as I know self-preservation instinct is more base(common/natural) and easily graspable as a concept then the feeling of unity. Not sure how you came about your conclusions about it.
Btw EU itself isnt necessity at all for any kind of alliance. Like to see you to try to prove me wrong though...
 
Actually, more like 10 years. The EU didn't sprout out of nothing in 1995, you know ?

I never said it did, but that doesn't mean that the "not nothing" was the EU, because it wasn't. And the quoted text was talking about the EU.
 
To this date the best defensive pact between humans is the nation, built on a semi artificial sense of unity between the people living in that nation. Rudolf, living in Rostock, and Julien, living in Bordeaux, didn't fight 3 wars over Moselle and Alsace because of a sense of self preservation. Of course Julien and Rudolf didn't really have a choice but part of the reason people accepted the wars was because of the feeling of unity they had with the people of Moselle and Alsace.

Today wars have changed, so the only thing the EU states would ask of Julien and Rudolf is to support a defensive war (for example in Estonia), not to fight in it. Also no one in western Europe wants an offensive war. But as the Munich agreements proved, a defensive pact isn't very useful if your allies don't care about you
 
So, elections in Italy this February and referendum on EU later on?

Right now, the Italian economy is held aloft by investors who expect there to not be immediate elections and, because of obvious risk, expect better returns than they might have two weeks ago. I think those border on predatory lending. Professionals in the European market have anticipated the contingency, so there was a strong effort to maintain the status quo. There are very few options left. I don't think the other shoe has hit the floor, yet.

Italy's banking system is mired in suspect loans, to the tune of some 360 billion euros. This is alot like the USA situation in 2007. The EU won't "let" Italy pass legislation for a taxpayer bailout, which was a large part of the strategy used by the USA in 2009. Maybe they can ask the EU for an exception. Maybe Italy will wildly throw the baby out with the bathwater and leave the EU so they're not constrained by regulation.

I think Italy's last best hope for positive reform was lost with Renzi's departure. I think Italy's banks have become a zombie company. I think the costs of sub-prime bailouts, moving forward, are adding insult to injury. I think this is one thing I'm not going to be happy being right about.
 
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