The European Union

[Lillefix]

Yes, the European Union encourages open, uniform, capitalistic free market. It's called the single market. If you don't like the single market - of course you won't like the EU. But why would anyone not like a single market is incomprehensible.

Depends on the countries you share it with. A single market with the US would be problematic for EU since the US would outcompete EU with it's extremely cheap GM-crops and antibiotic filled meat. But among countries with similar economies and similar values it works excellent.

 

[Kozmos]

1 - It's far more expensive for corporations to finance lobbying with 28 governments (they have to buy not just influence, but knowlege of the local environment, and involve many more people) than to carry out their corruption just in one place.
2 (and perhaps more important) - the EU's single market promotes M&A, the creation of corporate giants for the sake of "competition" with the rest of the world. The end result of course is lack of competition in the EU, but pretend you don't see that... These larger corporations can "invest" more resources on corruption than smaller, country-size corporations, and do not have to fight against many other competitors in the process.

I'm not so sure that is true, corporations certainly won't be broken up since they can operate outside Europe just as easily. Single, smaller countries with less pronounced divisons within their singular body, responsible to fewer essential supporters to stay in power would somehow be less vulnerable to corruption? Those anti-trust lawsuits would just be clogging their inboxes yeah. It doesn't matter if it costs more as long as the bottom line is improved and the probability of success is greater.

On the up side you can go from blaming the foreign bureaucrats in Brussels to blaming your own national politicans. I've been through that once already and the onus for national politicians in a democracy to improve is laughable.

 

[Gigaz]

Depends on the countries you share it with. A single market with the US would be problematic for EU since the US would outcompete EU with it's extremely cheap GM-crops and antibiotic filled meat. But among countries with similar economies and similar values it works excellent.

Actually the EU has an trade surplus and the US has a deficit. It is true that American agriculture is very efficient, but it would still likely not compete with European food because of the additional effort with preservation and transportation. In most cases, vegetables from Spain arrive in Norway within one day and there are good reasons for that.

 

[Kyriakos]

Actually the EU has an trade surplus and the US has a deficit. It is true that American agriculture is very efficient, but it would still likely not compete with European food because of the additional effort with preservation and transportation. In most cases, vegetables from Spain arrive in Norway within one day and there are good reasons for that.

Including belgian chicken?



There were those mad cows too. Away from the maddening cow. (see, @Arakhor ; it isn't cool)

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Exactly. I have no doubt that the EU is heavily influenced by corporate lobbyists. But I have also no doubt that their influence on single independent governments would be even worse.

That's pretty much my opinion, and it's also worth noting that the only way to get rid of tax havens is through the EU. Not that it's likely, but at least it's possible.
However, the EU has been on the wrong track for the past 6 years. The debt crisis was seriously bungled by a corrupt and ideological German government that ended up with too much power and influence. I don't know if things will get better before the damage is irreparable (provided it isn't already too late).
Brexit and Trump are both opportunities for Europe to get out of America's shadow and maybe undertake reforms that don't put businesses and banks before people, but now France is threatening to elect a Thatcher fanboy and Merkel will run again in Germany next year.
The future of the EU hinges on the German and Frech elections next year. Right-wing victories will only accelerate the downward spiral.

 

[Kozmos]

Brexit and Trump are both opportunities for Europe to get out of America's shadow and maybe undertake reforms that don't put businesses and banks before people, but now France is threatening to elect a Thatcher fanboy and Merkel will run again in Germany next year.
The future of the EU hinges on the German and Frech elections next year. Right-wing victories will only accelerate the downward spiral.

Right wing victories might be a good thing actually. It's a clear signal that if they want to stay in charge they need to preform some serious error-correction policy wise. Granted, there is a chance the whole thing goes belly up completely during their mandates, but EU has always been on the whole live fast, die young track. It's why there's been so much whining and pushback.

 

[Kyriakos]

^No. It is pretty irrational to think right to far right parties rising in many euro countries will help the EU. Then again, they wouldn't be on the rise without the Eu in the first place as it has been post 2003 and more importantly as it turned into a ludicrous german hegemony with the debt crisis botched like that.

But to think the right-to far right will be in favour of international co-operation is not very much in line with history. Only way the Eu could be positive would be if it was for positive principles, not more of the greed and warmongering the other blocs are or were.

 

[Kozmos]

My guess is the actual business interests the far right is beholden to (cute stories about the people taking back what is theirs aside) will yank them back to the center in deeds, if not words. The far-right is simply not that numerically overwhelming to effect a stack wipe so to speak.

 

[innonimatu]

It's not about the right-wing. It's about the voters. Even if some right-wing party is elected on an anti-euro, anti-eu platform and betrays it, the voters remain there. And more pissed off. You're looking at the issue as the Brussels bureaucrats and the national governments have been so far: "we'll deal with them". There is no possible deal, the EU is increasingly hated for objective reasons: people's lives are getting worse with it. If the first batch of "radicals" fails to dismantle it, the voters know how to double-down also. They'll pick someone more radical, until the job is done.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Depends on the countries you share it with. A single market with the US would be problematic for EU since the US would outcompete EU with it's extremely cheap GM-crops and antibiotic filled meat. But among countries with similar economies and similar values it works excellent.

Everyone outside of the third world (and some in it) use genetically modified seeds and antibiotic-filled meat. The matter is extent, and some amount of regulation. The USA has whistle-blowers who, duly, make an issue of it, while in Europe you don't know what you're eating in a given day, it could be grass-fed cow or broken-down race horse.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-21375594

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/01/24/burger-king-horsemeat/1861529/

https://www.fsai.ie/uploadedFiles/News_Centre/Burger_results_2013_01.pdf

 

[EnglishEdward]

You're grasping at straws here. The "European single market" can be referred to as "the single market" when it's very clear what continent we're talking about.

Yes, I am quibbling the exact language, but the language used influences thinking.

The effect of the European single market is to separate us by tariff walls from
other single markets e.g.China, India, CIS on the same Euro-Asian continent.

And the UK is not part of the Euro-Asian continent.

 

[Agent327]

It is, actually.

 

[Verbose]

Other such markets exist, within the USA (or arguably NAFTA) and within China,
so the use of the definite article the word "the" implies an underserved uniqueness.

Do you think Brexit could happen in China? Or even the US?

I you do, well, I suppose you would claim a lack of uniqueness for the EU.

 

[Verbose]

It is, actually.

Quite. Never been tried quite like that before.

 

[Kozmos]

It's not about the right-wing. It's about the voters. Even if some right-wing party is elected on an anti-euro, anti-eu platform and betrays it, the voters remain there. And more pissed off. You're looking at the issue as the Brussels bureaucrats and the national governments have been so far: "we'll deal with them". There is no possible deal, the EU is increasingly hated for objective reasons: people's lives are getting worse with it. If the first batch of "radicals" fails to dismantle it, the voters know how to double-down also. They'll pick someone more radical, until the job is done.

Certainly, they can elect as many hope-peddling populists as they want. Realities of public office and politics will remain the same.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Do you think Brexit could happen in China? Or even the US?

I you do, well, I suppose you would claim a lack of uniqueness for the EU.

My claim for the EU's single market's lack of uniqueness, as being more such that it does not own the term 'single market', are in its claim to
be a unique market where competition and economy of scale can produce benefits; not in its legal underpinnings regarding exit/secession.

As for China, I doubt that.

As for the USA, I doubt that, but who knows what the long term consequence of Truump will be!

 

[Agent327]

Well, to be honest, I think it's because the 'we're an island' thing, and ignoring the continental shelf. But it would be kind of odd if the British isles didn't belong to Europe - and Ireland does. (Oh wait, what am I saying...)

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, it is not like GB and Ireland are a continent by themselves; this isn't Westeros
Afaik Iceland is always counted as part of the european subcontinent too.

 

[Mise]

The EU is great in principle and great in practice. It's one of the greatest projects of the 20th century. Dismantling it or leaving it is idiotic and self-immolating.

 

[Snerk]

Q: Realisticly, can the union and it's policies be shifted to the left?

I don't see the union thriving in the long run unless it can take meaningful actions against the galloping inequalities of Europe. At the same time I'm struggling to see how EU can take a step to the left in today's hostile political climate.