If universe is giant piece of mashinery why would that matter?
The fine-tuning argument for God's existence
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If universe is giant piece of mashinery why would that matter?
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Because I have feelings and if you punch me in the face it'll hurt and it'll make my day worse and it'll just generally suck?
Do you really not understand why it makes sense for people to be moral and generally nice to eachother - as opposed to immoral jerks?
I thought this was something people figure out at a relatively young age.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Because if you don't you're a jerk and people don't like jerks.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Perfection said:
Darwin worked mostly on birds and he gradually understood how they adapt to different types of food through selection of individuals with better-suited bill shapes. Then they differentiated into species because individuals with certain bill shapes had offspring only with individuals with similar bill shapes (even if interracial cross-breeds happened, they probably did not survive due to having intermediary bill shapes, not well suited to eat food typical for race of either parent).
So he understood that evolution works through selection (better adapted individuals have more offspring) and endogamy (closed gene pools).
But I don't think Darwin understood for example how evolutionary leaps work, or that he was even aware that such events happen.
On evolutionary leaps / evolutionary jumps : http://sciencenordic.com/evolution-giant-leaps-or-half-measures
Evolution by leaps / jumps is a lot closer to creationism than the old theory about gradual process at a constant but always very slow pace.
Of course not all evolution happens by leaps, but new findings suggest that a lot of crucial parts of evolution did take place like this.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Are you my 4 year old niece?
"Can I punch people in the face?"
"No, it isn't a nice thing to do."
"Why?"
"Because people have feelings"
"Why?"
...
This is the line of reasoning which makes people say that if God created all morality, people who don't believe in God are clearly immoral sociopaths.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Why does it have to matter?
1. Because of human empathy. Hurting others makes you feel bad because of natural processes in your brain. If you always feel bad you cant function properly and you die.
2. Cost-benefit. If you hurt others or refuse to help others they will refuse to help you and exclude you. Without the help of others you die.
3. Habit/Social norms. You are taught from childhood to be nice. As an adult it is part of your behavioral norms. It is almost impossible to overcome this conditioning.
It is not necessary for there to be an immortal God for humans to have developed the habit of being nice to each other, or for that matter an immortal devil for humans to have developed the habit of being mean. We have plenty of reasons to kill each other without an immortal devil making us do so. Functioning human morality is not proof of Fine-Tuning.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Well our current morality stems from Ancient Judeo-Christian tradition, which doesn't mean that atheists and people of some other religions do not adhere to it. They do, for various reasons. This moral code became part of our civilization and it has become separated from its religious aspects. We must also remeber that most of atheists currently alive, have either religious parents, grandparents or teachers, because atheism has become so widespread only recently.
And those grandparents / parents / teachers were the ones who taught them this type of morality.
And those grandparents / parents / teachers were the ones who taught them this type of morality.
Well it does to the point that our lives spins around it. You cant have happy live unless you live in harmony not only with laws of gravity but also with the ethics laws which could be said are laws of some world which is absent from lower form of live. It is SO important that unless one is psychopat one cant do without obeying these inner laws...
Freely admitted and "Open" atheism is a recent phenomenon. People have been atheists for ages, but that sort of thing used to get you burned at the stake so people kept it to themselves.
In any case, the reason people "adhere to religious morality" is likely because it has been beneficial to do so for various reasons (like not getting burned at the stake). The fact that people don't want to get burned at the stake is not proof of Fine Tuning.
Too simplyfied. Many of animals depend on hurting others and often we feel pleasure when something bad happens to others
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Arakhor said:
God didn't do this, but gave humans a fundamental free will.
So humans got an opportunity to develop their own moral codes.
Some of these codes are of course closer to God's ideal morality.
God also gave some "hints", as to how it should look like.
Like "you shall not murder" (kill is a wrong translation from Hebrew).
Well I did give 3 reasons... I don't follow... Are you looking for a lecture? You want me to post a more lengthy/complicated answer?
I was trying to keep it short because I didn't want to bore everyone by saying a bunch of obvious things.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Punctuated equilibrium is so overhyped and people take it to mean things it doesn't. Basically it points out that most of the time natural selection favors stasis (things staying the same) and the bulk of changes occur in small populations over in periods of increased (but still gradual) rate. It doesn't overthrow Darwin, these "jumps" still follow the same rules Darwin came up with and take place over hundreds and thousands of generations, even though it's significantly faster than periods of stasis.
Perfection
The Great Head.
We have an instinct to be ethical. If we fight it we feel bad. That instinct comes from evolution. People who lack that instinct act are likely to act like jerks. And people who act like jerks turn friends into enemies. That makes reproduction difficult and thus promotes genes that code for ethical instincts.
Thanks everyone. Its 4am overhere and writing on Samsung phone is killer...
Perfection
The Great Head.
I'm posting on my Galaxy S3. Writing ain't so bad. Cropping quotes can be a pain though.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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I'm a crazy person who doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong. (I do care what the difference is, though.)
It's just that, while I understand the conventional rules about not hurting people - and I don't want to hurt people - I don't know what the ultimate consequences of all my actions will be.
Sometimes you've to be cruel to be kind. And I don't know just how cruel, or when I should be cruel, to be kind. I think I'm probably incredibly cruel, because I'd rather be unkind by being kind than by being cruel.
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