The gender myth

Are you sure this is even the case? Dr. Fine's argument seems to be that there were no overwhelming innate differences, not that differences do not emerge; she argues that mental function is less hard-wired than we believe, and that socialisation effects mental development. That doesn't mean that most adult men don't X and most adult women don't Y, simply that X and Y are down to more than genetics. (And let's not forget that, even in our highly binary world, neither men or women exclusively X or Y to the full extent of each. At best, you can talk about general tendencies.)

Put it this way; she's not arguing that the cyclist and the weight-lifter aren't built differently, merely that their differences are not as innately pronounced as they happen to be right now.
 
Right brain only thought versus both-hemisphere brain thought isn't an overwhelming difference?

I'm fairly baffled here
 
You keep going back to that one. Would you have any references for that?

And, again, I'm not sure to what extent that actually conflicts with what Dr. Fine argued. Her position was not that differences to not exist, but that they are not innate. One would have to demonstrate the above difference is innate. Certainly, I can't image Fine simply overlooking something which would be so obvious.
 
It's just something I've heard repeated many times before, I could look for a reference.

I've also read lots about how several lobes/parts of the brain are different sizes in males and females.
 
Well, I suppose that's what Fine is arguing; that these differences owe more to socialisation than we think.

It would be interesting to see comparisons which also take into account transexual, transgender, genderqueer and gender-variant people. That might be quite enlightening.
 
Differences in the size of lobes in the brain are due to socialization?

These differences would seem to me to be genetic... the same way all other differences in body parts between males and females are genetic.
 
Well, that's the argument she's making, isn't it? That the human brain is not as consistently hardwired as we think, and that the eventual adult structure depends more to a significant extent on environment and experience, which is itself a product of socialisation. Males are generally expected to be more physical and to engage more readily in sporting activity, so their brains grow to accommodate this, while females are expected to be more social and emotional, so their brains similar grow to that end.

Also, for the record, not all differences between men and women are genetic, as such, given the strength of the role played by hormones in physical development. While hormones are heavily influenced by genetics, they're are far more fluid than "recipe X for women, recipe Y for men", and can also be altered by human intervention. Hypothetically, a pre-adolescent who was given the hormone treatment used in gender transition would end up with a far more androgynous, even opposite-sex body; there are, in fact, a number of young trans people who are betting on this very outcome, some of whom where the subject of a 2009 Channel 4 documentary.
Sex, it should be remembered, is itself a construct, albeit a rather more well grounded one than gender, and is in fact a rough average of chromosomal, hormonal and anatomical sex. Furthermore, a certain distinction can be drawn between internal and external anatomical sex, the latter of which is the prime determinant of what you might call "social sex"; transsexual people, who have the complete kit of neither norm, are technically intersex, but are deemed by society to be the sex appropriate to their external anatomy (or at least by that part of it with any manners).
 
You're completely losing me.

Men and women's bodies produce different hormones naturally... that is a huge part of our genetic difference.

Men are more physical and engage in more sporting activities because we are better at them, and we're better at them because we're naturally bigger faster and stronger.
 
You're completely losing me.
Well, I'm getting into Judith Butler territory here, which I doubt even Butler herself is entirely steady on. ;)

Men and women's bodies produce different hormones naturally... that is a huge part of our genetic difference.
As I said, hormones are indeed heavily influenced by genetics, but that does not mean that it is down to genetics per se; as I said, both the inconsistency of hormonal production with both sex and the ability of humans to intervene in hormonal production and the resulting anatomical development go some way to disrupting the traditional belief in biological determinism, but demonstrating that anatomical sex is not the neat binary that we imagine it to be.

Men are more physical and engage in more sporting activities because we are better at them, and we're better at them because we're naturally bigger faster and stronger.
On average, yes, but that is exaggerated by traditional gender roles, which force people into particular behavioural patterns based on reproductive organs, rather than natural tendencies or abilities. While it is certainly true to say that most men are stronger than most women, it does not follow that any given man is stronger than any given woman, not only contemporarily but innately. A naturally skinny 5'5'' man is unlikely to be as innately strong as a naturally muscular 6'3'' woman (and, before you say anything, I know both of these people).
 
Then why do you actively argue against it? Claiming that genderqueer people suffer from a psychological condition doesn't seem particularly in-step with the position I stated.

What I object to is the claim that you somehow dismiss the generalities of behavior of each gender, as if to claim that any differences between genders are simply the result of individual choices. It is quite clear, as you admit, that men will tend to behave in a masculine way, and women in a feminine. That occasionally there are exceptions proves nothing more than that humans have sentience and can choose to behave as they wish, even to resist their biological natures. One may easily argue that it is in my biological nature, as a male pumped with testosterone, to behave aggressively and competitively against other males, constantly challenging them, yet you will not find me bruised by fights.

It goes deeper than mere formal economic and legal equality there's a whole range of deeply rooted social and culture inequality (which harms men, as well as women). There's more to it than pay-cheques and child-care.

History has demonstrated that societies are easily manipulated by political and economic forces. (Some have argued that they are the determinants of social forces.) In the US, it was only a generation ago acceptable to openly display one's bigotry, but a series of laws made such treatment forbidden, with the result, in a generation, that there is considerably less racism socially as well. In a more ominous note, Nazi Germany made its brand of bigotry the prevailing function in far less than a generation, by enforcing the Nuremberg Laws.

My point was that one cannot conflate cissexual forms of gender non-conformity with transexuality, which has it's own very particular details.

Peculiar is right.

That is not what "experience" means. You may as well suggest that the Civil Rights movement was based on a false perception of racism because the Nation of Islam had a warped world view.

I only assert that not all experience deserve equal recognition. There is also hallucinatory experience, for one.

My point was that, if you seek social justice for trans, genderqueer and gender non-conforming people, you can't simply dismiss their experiences as the result of a psychosocial disorder. That is not a progressive attitude.

I had no idea we were talking of justice.

As I said, hormones are indeed heavily influenced by genetics, but that does not mean that it is down to genetics per se; as I said, both the inconsistency of hormonal production with both sex and the ability of humans to intervene in hormonal production and the resulting anatomical development go some way to disrupting the traditional belief in biological determinism, but demonstrating that anatomical sex is not the neat binary that we imagine it to be.

Not a lot of knowledge of biology there. There's quite a difference in endocrinology between males and females, and believe me, it makes a big difference in behavior as a result. PMS doesn't occur in males. Granted, it doesn't occur in all females either, but I think you see the point. And there is research to support the notion that "biological determinism" helps explain homosexuality, in that a certain region of the hypothalamus differs in homosexual men in a matter analogous to that of hetero women. That would make sense, because the nucleus that regulates sexual attraction is located in the hypothalamus. Or what did you think motivated homosexuality or heterosexuality? People just randomly deciding, on a whim, to go one way or another? Yes, you will find all sorts of variations, because humans are sentient, and make choices that can be contradictory to biology, but we don't need a whole sphere of study to discover that people make choices.
 
What I object to is the claim that you somehow dismiss the generalities of behavior of each gender, as if to claim that any differences between genders are simply the result of individual choices. It is quite clear, as you admit, that men will tend to behave in a masculine way, and women in a feminine. That occasionally there are exceptions proves nothing more than that humans have sentience and can choose to behave as they wish, even to resist their biological natures. One may easily argue that it is in my biological nature, as a male pumped with testosterone, to behave aggressively and competitively against other males, constantly challenging them, yet you will not find me bruised by fights.
I am not sure that we are on the same page here; what I am suggesting is that a monolithic, binary, biologically deterministic notion of gender restricts individual expression and self-fulfilment, which is something ultimately determined by a range of individual factors intersecting in an individual manner. On what point, exactly, do you differ?

History has demonstrated that societies are easily manipulated by political and economic forces. (Some have argued that they are the determinants of social forces.) In the US, it was only a generation ago acceptable to openly display one's bigotry, but a series of laws made such treatment forbidden, with the result, in a generation, that there is considerably less racism socially as well. In a more ominous note, Nazi Germany made its brand of bigotry the prevailing function in far less than a generation, by enforcing the Nuremberg Laws.
I did not suggest that there is no interaction between cultural/social and legal/political equality, merely that the two are distinct, and achieving the former does not mean that one has achieved the other. That should be fairly self-evident.

Peculiar is right.
I said "particular", but thank you for that transphobic little nugget. At least I know where you stand on the matter.

I only assert that not all experience deserve equal recognition. There is also hallucinatory experience, for one.
Recognition does not mean that one should take any individuals word as given, and ignore all other context. It simply means that you do not restrict your understanding of the subjectivity of human experience in order to maintain a rigid world-view.

I had no idea we were talking of justice.
We're discussing gender non-conformity; it goes with the territory.


Not a lot of knowledge of biology there. There's quite a difference in endocrinology between males and females, and believe me, it makes a big difference in behavior as a result. PMS doesn't occur in males. Granted, it doesn't occur in all females either, but I think you see the point. And there is research to support the notion that "biological determinism" helps explain homosexuality, in that a certain region of the hypothalamus differs in homosexual men in a matter analogous to that of hetero women. That would make sense, because the nucleus that regulates sexual attraction is located in the hypothalamus. Or what did you think motivated homosexuality or heterosexuality? People just randomly deciding, on a whim, to go one way or another? Yes, you will find all sorts of variations, because humans are sentient, and make choices that can be contradictory to biology, but we don't need a whole sphere of study to discover that people make choices.
Honestly, I think we're on different pages again. As I have said, I am not suggesting that biology is not of relevance, but that it is not the monolithic binary that the traditional model of sex/gender assumes, and that it is fact determined by a variety of intersecting variables. Either way, the comments on biology were somewhat tangential; it span off an observation that chromosomal sex is not the sole determinant of anatomical sex.
I also think that you misunderstand my use of "biological determinism"; I am not referring to the notion that biology effects individual behaviour and identity, which is so obvious as to go without saying, but to a system which presents two strictly defined genders and attributes them to individuals based on biological sex. Saying "my sexual preferences are to a significant extent the result of my biological make-up" and "my sexual preferences are the rigidly defined preferences assigned to me by society on the basis of my sexual organs" are hardly the same thing.
 
Just because genders are different does not mean that they do not deserve equal treatment. Maybe boys learn math better than girls, or not. It shouldn't prevent both from being taught math and to have certain minimal expectations.
I agree wholeheartedly here.

You must live on another planet, because it's quite obvious to everyone else what the gender differences are, and which can be attributed to socialization.
I don't think it's that obvious. How do you determine if a sex difference is due to socialization or not?

It is ever more obvious that the differences between genders are far greater than within a gender. You cannot claim, in this age of gender equality, that women are restricted from certain roles by being female.
I don't buy this. I think a sticking point here is "restriction" as if it's only some hard force can impact gender roles. I think softer cultural norms may play a significant role here.

And legal equality has most certainly led to social equality as well.
That seems non-obvious to me, and the status of African-Americans and Native-Americans in the US seems to indicate that you are in fact incorrect.


So a couple of final points:
1. Socially-induced sex differences need not be automatically considered a bad thing. They may be trivial (I don't see how pink=girls blue=boys is really problematic and I would speculate that this is likely entirely societal), but it might even be more profound. Maybe it makes sense to have certain occupations available that are dominated by a single sex, but it doesn't really matter which occupations they are. (certain men and/or women would be drawn to professions dominated by their own gender)

2. Claims based on inherent sex-differences should be handled very carefully. False and speculative claims can perpetuate stereotypes which are then fed back in to validate the claim. I'm thinking specifically of the sorts of claims made by people like Jared Diamond in The Third Chimpanzee and Steven Pinker in The Blank Slate
 
(I think the problem is boys get all the other colours too)
 
I agree wholeheartedly here.

1. Socially-induced sex differences need not be automatically considered a bad thing. They may be trivial (I don't see how pink=girls blue=boys is really problematic and I would speculate that this is likely entirely societal), but it might even be more profound. Maybe it makes sense to have certain occupations available that are dominated by a single sex, but it doesn't really matter which occupations they are. (certain men and/or women would be drawn to professions dominated by their own gender)

But even something as seemingly innocent as color association starts to create an "us vs them" mentality. Why adhere to things that are surely societal constructs?

and as for jobs; the idea that men and women are suitable for different occupations is the argument of a patriarchal system, which seeks to keep the occupations with the highest salaries and most influence for men only.
 
I don't think it's that obvious. How do you determine if a sex difference is due to socialization or not?

I'm not really addressing this directly, but I think it's clear, from even casual observation, that women and men do not share identical behavior patterns. The feminine vs. masculine behaviors can be observed in many cultures throughout the world. So it cannot be just on account of socialization alone.

I don't buy this. I think a sticking point here is "restriction" as if it's only some hard force can impact gender roles. I think softer cultural norms may play a significant role here.

That seems non-obvious to me, and the status of African-Americans and Native-Americans in the US seems to indicate that you are in fact incorrect.

There have not been sufficient generations removed from gender and racial equality laws to make equality total in all things. However, it is eminently obvious that there has been progress. You would never find, for example, an African-American surgeon working in a hospital 50 years ago, and yet my hospital's surgical staff is 50% African-American. This from a state where, 150 years ago, the only place you'd find a black man working was on a tobacco plantation.

Eventually, there will not be a sizable generation left alive who is racist or sexist. That's been the way of things for thousands of years on many changes.
 
I'm not really addressing this directly, but I think it's clear, from even casual observation, that women and men do not share identical behavior patterns.
And nobody is arguing differently, merely suggesting that uniformly gendered behaviour patterns are not innate to our species. We do not exist in a vacuum, so to suggest that one can infer the absolute from the immediate is simply unreasonable. One may as well suggest that the Germans are genetically inclined towards orderedness, the English towards cynicism or the Americans towards boisterousness.

The feminine vs. masculine behaviors can be observed in many cultures throughout the world. So it cannot be just on account of socialization alone.
It is not the existence of masculine and feminine tendencies which are denied, but against a monolithic, binary, biologically attributed understanding of gender.

It's not as if such a thing is universal to human culture, after all...
The Native Americans have the "Two-Spirits", people who are recognised as inter- or bi-gendered; Amerindians have many customs of Cogenderism; some Mesoamerican cultures recognised a third gender; the Indian subcontinent and South-East Asia has a long history of third/trans/inter-genderism, like the India Hijra or the Thai Kathoey; in much of the pre-Christian Middle East and Mediterranean, eunuchs were not regarded as men, but as a third gender; the Albanian hill-tribes entertain a form of transgenderism known as "Sworn virginity" ...China has a long history of transgenderism.
 
So what's your view regarding the differences between men and women? Nature or nurture?

This kind of mental masturbations has ruined the relationships between men and women and doomed the future of Family in the western world, downgrading it to a comical and globalized version of what it used to be up until the advent of television and other mass media that spread the plague that came out of the minds of the Great Masturbators, a.k.a. sociologists, psycologists, etc, starting from the controversial and contradictory theories on how to grow children, based solely on personal and biased opinions of so called doctors/experts/scientists disguised as studies and researches; all this while around us, the other fellow inhabitants of our planet grow their cubs without the need of a book or of sociologists from millions of years, same goes for the relationships between males and females. Now I'm not against progress and improvement, but one thing is to use brains to analyze facts and give advices on how to improve a situation, another thing is to have personal -moral, religious, and whatnot- convinctions, use brains for mental masturbations, ignore completely our *precious* instincts and intuitions and brainwashing millions of peoples on the need, not to improve relationships and more in general way of life, but to completely upset them.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

I'm not sure if this guy has been mentioned. He was gender reassigned with devastating results (he killed himself eventually). Moral of the story. Let boys be boys, and let girls be girls. Don't force behaviour on children (aside from need behavior like not being a violent thug), let them decide for themselves how they want to be.
 
This kind of mental masturbations has ruined the relationships between men and women and doomed the future of Family in the western world, downgrading it to a comical and globalized version of what it used to be up until the advent of television and other mass media that spread the plague that came out of the minds of the Great Masturbators, a.k.a. sociologists, psycologists, etc, starting from the controversial and contradictory theories on how to grow children, based solely on personal and biased opinions of so called doctors/experts/scientists disguised as studies and researches; all this while around us, the other fellow inhabitants of our planet grow their cubs without the need of a book or of sociologists from millions of years, same goes for the relationships between males and females. Now I'm not against progress and improvement, but one thing is to use brains to analyze facts and give advices on how to improve a situation, another thing is to have personal -moral, religious, and whatnot- convinctions, use brains for mental masturbations, ignore completely our *precious* instincts and intuitions and brainwashing millions of peoples on the need, not to improve relationships and more in general way of life, but to completely upset them.
I do not even know what this means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

I'm not sure if this guy has been mentioned. He was gender reassigned with devastating results (he killed himself eventually).
Actually, Reimer's case has been examined in great detail and to a great extent by gender and queer theorists, and, while certainly enlightening, doesn't really support the traditional monolithic binary. After all, it's not as if "raised one gender/sex, identified with another" is a detail unique to this particular case; see: every trans person ever. Reimer may have had a greater weight of biology behind his identification, but the case is unique largely in it's peculiar background, rather than in Reimer's experience. (Incidentally, his suicide also far from unique; trans people have an exceptionally high suicide rate, even more so than gay people.)

Moral of the story. Let boys be boys, and let girls be girls. Don't force behaviour on children (aside from need behavior like not being a violent thug), let them decide for themselves how they want to be.
But a monolithic, binary view of gender is, in itself, the forcing of behaviour upon people. No society that adheres to such a limited, prescriptive view of gender identity can claim to truly represent the sort of individualism which you quite rightly endorse.

Edit: In fact, you put it quite nicely in another thread:
There are over 6 billion correct ways to live your life.
I would assume that this applies to gender as surely as anything else.
 
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