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The Good State of Offtopic

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, Feb 27, 2019.

  1. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    @Timsup2nothin, I agree there is no ultimate objective measure, but there are clear cases on either side. The lack of an objective measure doesn't that doesn't mean you have to just go with how someone feels. There are lots of tools you have to evaluate the situation, and a lot of things to consider.

    As an analogy, there isn't an objective measure of a great movie. Any attempt to try to define what those parameters are is probably a waste of time and someone could probably come up with counter examples. But some movies are still great, and others are not. Even though I can't define it, I'm more than happy to claim as a matter of fact that "Battlefield Earth" is not a great movie. It simply isn't. You might think it is, you might feel really strong that it is, but you're just wrong.

    In that thread, Mary wasn't bullied. She might have felt that she was, she might think that she was, but she wasn't. I didn't see her bullied a single time by a single person. She stated her opinion, at times most people agreed, at other times many did not. She always had at least a couple people supporting her, and those who disagreed always disagreed with her ideas and claims.

    All of you people suggesting that she was bullied, I've personally seen you disagree with someone on this forum in a much more aggressive way than anything Mary faced in that thread.
     
  2. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Warlord

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    Perhaps I misunderstood. It looked like you were asking him how he could criticise someone for not quoting or citing PMs when that would be against the rules, but I didn't see him actually making that criticism. If that's not what you meant then objection withdrawn.
     
  3. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    well, bully for you
     
  4. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    And I daresay you've seen most of us disagreed with in a much more aggressive way. And for myself, I've never felt bullied. That's my point regarding the reality that there is no objective standard available, so the only thing that works is checking intent...and the only way to check intent is to watch reaction once the question is raised.

    Illustrative anecdote:

    Spoiler :
    One night I was on my way somewhere and stopped at a supermarket to pick up a couple things. It was after eleven, the parking lot was just about empty; my guess was just employee cars. So I could park in the first space of any row I wanted, and did. Hopped out and started across the traffic lanes that run across the front of the store.

    There was a guy in a pickup truck coming along the front of the store. I did walk in front of him, with the assumed 'pedestrian right of way' that legally applied. I also knew that he could just go around me since I am hardly big enough to block a two lane path and he was the only moving car in the entire lot. He opted to keep coming, then brake fairly hard, and lay on his horn.

    So, me being me, instead of continuing out of his path I stopped, made sure I was in front but close enough to sidestep him if he decided to be even stupider, and said "Hey, the only reason to lay on your horn like that is if you are just trying to piss me off. There's plenty of room so if you had somewhere to be you could have gone around without even slowing down." So, his response was to lay on his horn again.

    Being a very patient sort and not wanting to misunderstand his intentions I said "One more time, the only reason to hit that horn is if you want to piss someone off just to see what happens."

    When he hit the horn the third time I figured he had made his intentions crystal clear and went to work on his truck. I wasn't mad, it just seemed like what he wanted.



    Again, the point is that if you tell someone "this is what results from your current course of action" and they continue that course of action they are making a very clear statement of their intentions and I see no reason not to give them the treatment such an intention deserves.
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It's an interesting story but I don't see how it's applicable to this case. Heck, you even actually told him a standard. It isn't an "objective" standard, but you stated it and applied it self-consistently...
     
  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    And when told by someone "I feel bullied here" I apply that same standard...and stop doing whatever I'm doing that makes them feel bullied. Unless my intent is to bully them further, in which case I make a note of what works on them and do it at every opportunity.
     
  7. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    is that trolling?
     
  8. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Why do you ask?
     
  9. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    to get an answer
     
  10. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Was it one of those "I know the answer but want to see how you answer" questions, or a genuine "I'm ignorant of the subject and want information" questions?
     
  11. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    Are you asking if bullying via PM has happened here? Yes. I've experienced it myself, from various sources, numerous times over the past 14 years. Did I report it? Yes, most times when it seemed likely that some remedy could be found (whether the remedy was found is a whole different case).

    As for whether Mary was bullied via PM, I have not seen her PMs. However, she has stated receiving PMs that can be characterized as bullying. Given that we first became friends on another forum where she was stalked (took the moderators and admin staff to put an end to that; they've verified this), I have no reason not to believe her here.

    My point is that whether we are referring to Mary or someone else, the fact is that bullying does occur via PM.

    I invite you to re-read the threads in question. Or PM Mary herself and ask. She left OT, but still posts in the Civ section.

    I've made it clear that I don't agree with everything she said. We disagree on the matter of "some" men vs. "all" men. So I will not presume to speak for her as to why she asserts that "all" men are the problem. I know a possible reason as she's discussed that in greater detail on another forum (not here, not IALS). But I don't think it's right that I should be the one to post about it here. It's her life experiences she's described, not mine.

    As for "properties they can't control", please. It's behavior and thought patterns that are at issue, not basic anatomy. Behavior can be controlled, unless the person has some kind of disability (mental illness or condition such as Alzheimers or a brain injury that impairs thinking). Thought patterns can be dealt with through counseling and other kinds of therapy. So don't say that can't be controlled. It's not easy, but it's possible.

    I agree that definitions are important, but there are many definitions not found on whatever your favorite online dictionary might be.

    Same here. Whether anything effective results from that is another issue.

    Considering that I've been dealing with bullying on this site for the past 14 years pre-moderator, during my time as a moderator, and after my time as a moderator, how many hours do you have to read through it - the stuff still accessible, that is? Keep in mind that forum rules state that PMs may not be quoted in public, so there's a lot that cannot be linked or quoted.

    In your opinion, you mean. I'm not the only non-Mary person who perceived the <stuff> thrown at her as examples of bullying.

    With the same emotional and personal experience issues going on? I rather doubt that.
     
  12. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    I dont know the answer, thats why I asked.
     
  13. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    That's what is was asking: If there were PMs sort of going along with the progression of that thread in Mary's case.
    Needless to say i would desire more than the answer you have given, but obviously it wouldn't be useful for me to push you towards speculating on that datum.
     
  14. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    I'm trying to find a balance between what I know and what it would be ethical for me to say, and what I think I could speculate with reasonable accuracy.

    Honestly, the only way for you to know is to ask her yourself and accept that she might not choose to reply.
     
  15. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Game thread and?
     
  16. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 12:52 AM
    Valka D'Ur likes this.
  17. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    Yeah, everything I state is my opinion. I think it's basically a fact she wasn't bullied in that thread, but that, again, is just my opinion. All any of us have to bring to the table is our opinion.

    To be clear, if she was bullied via PM, that is obviously bad. I can't imagine anyone would defend that, and obviously most people wouldn't know if she was bullied there. The original claim was that she was bullied in the thread.

    Sure, but you do agree that people are capable of exploiting this, right? What happens if you are the one being perfectly polite and reasonable, and the other party still asserts "this is what results form your current course of action". Is the onus now on you to stop being reasonable, set aside your cognitive faculties, and find a way to please this person? And to be clear, this is what I saw happen. You can't make insulting and incorrect assertions about an entire sex and expect everyone to smile and nod. I mean, I'm not going to analyze it again, it's kind of boring at this point, LM summed it up pretty well in her post.
     
  18. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Just read every post possibly relevant. Can't be that thread. Definitely "strong statements" made by the opposing "teams" of that thread. The few directly, personally attacking posts were made by persons in the team sharing more likes and more posters. Very contentious discussion, pretty good thread to skim.
     
  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I avoid this problem by never being polite and reasonable.
     
  20. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    Oppression Olympics.

    In a really dismissive way. One woman does not speak for all women, and at least I'm not in the habit of claiming to definitively know what's going on in other posters' minds; I'm open to allowing them to clarify in case of a misunderstanding.
     

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