The Hinge of Fate - Playtest/Release Thread

[JPetroski]

Afterwards, I plan on researching the Align Finland advance, which should provide further forces to deploy for Barbarrossa

Make sure you research this before you launch Barbarossa or it will not do what you want it to and you'll get the historic help from Finland (their infantry and not much else in game terms).

(though I'm not certain what impact defeating Britain in England would have on my African campaign, i.e. would a British defeat there also mean they surrender in Africa and Greece as well?)

The Empire will fight on until you capture Suez.

1. I see you associated the WoW, Winston Churchill, with the Manhattan Project (aka the ability to produce the Atom bomb). That seems like an odd choice. What prompted you to do so?

I'm pretty sure that was just a "flavor" wonder that doesn't really do anything.

I also captured the British Parliament WoW (aka the Oracle), which doubles the effect of temples. Should the Germans be able to benefit from this wonder, i.e. should it be made obsolete if they capture the city?

I'd be of the opinion that Germans would be pretty happy if they captured London, so I would say I'd keep it.

I may be mistaken, but the British AI seems to have difficulties when it comes to rebuilding improvements after their corresponding Housing District, Urban and Industrial Centers have been destroyed. Have you noticed or experienced the same thing?

This is an unintended consequence of my using automated production settings for them to ensure they're building certain units... They won't build any cities because they're preset to build specific units. Maybe an oversight or perhaps a good thing depending on other playtests I usppose.

Why can Flak shells only fire on the night map but not the daytime bombing map as well? Pressing 5 automatically places the shell on the night map.

88mm flak fires two types of munitions:
1. AT rounds (k)
2. AA rounds (u)

If you're using 5 to move them you're probably using wilde sau in a way I didn't foresee (I think all German air units can use it, so it makes sense that it works for a munition). Anyway, pressing "u" with the AA shell moves it to the night map without any movement being deducted.

Glad you're having fun - I'll be interested to see how a match goes with England beaten before the Soviets! At least you won't have to worry about D-Day (you'll still want to at least defend Africa well to prevent Italy, or ideally capture Suez).

 

[tootall_2012]

Make sure you research this before you launch Barbarossa or it will not do what you want it to and you'll get the historic help from Finland (their infantry and not much else in game terms).

Yes, this time I was aware of this limitation from the ReadMe , hence my plan to research it next.

The Empire will fight on until you capture Suez.

What will happen to the British, and future American, bombing campaign over the Reich, if I capture England? Will bombers cease to appear over Germany? And what effect will it have on the cargo ships?

If you're using 5 to move them you're probably using wilde sau in a way I didn't foresee (I think all German air units can use it, so it makes sense that it works for a munition). Anyway, pressing "u" with the AA shell moves it to the night map without any movement being deducted.

Should the Flak munitions be able to fire on the day time map? I would be inclined to say yes, but it's not my design.

Glad you're having fun - I'll be interested to see how a match goes with England beaten before the Soviets! At least you won't have to worry about D-Day (you'll still want to at least defend Africa well to prevent Italy, or ideally capture Suez).

Yes, I'm concerned that I won't be able to administer I strong enough initial blow to make true headway into Russia. Whether my ability to redirect most of my war effort against that nation, once England falls, will pay off in the long run, only time will tell.

All the same, unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't sound like these are scenarios you may have had time to truly flesh out during your own testing and therefore it's the reason I wanted to try it out once I discovered I had technically achieved air superioroty during the Battle of Britain.

 

[JPetroski]

What will happen to the British, and future American, bombing campaign over the Reich, if I capture England? Will bombers cease to appear over Germany? And what effect will it have on the cargo ships?

You will no longer have to deal with the combined bomber offensive if you conquer England. You'll also have no more commando raids, no more D-Day (though Torch and Italy are still possible), and no more cargo ship reinforcements, period, meaning that Malta and Suez are going to be in big trouble, even though you'll still need to seize them (though perhaps this really doesn't make much sense).

Should the Flak munitions be able to fire on the day time map? I would be inclined to say yes, but it's not my design.

They were supposed to, but I never tested it, and now I see that my choosing to use the same key for its "arrival" and its movement to the night map has likely befallen the same fate as the generals (where the game was simply doing both events at once).

Here's a quick fix. You'll need to put this in the "LuaRulesEvents" folder. Now, "u" fires the flak burst and it is on the day low alt map. "8" transfers it to the night map, and "n" transfers it to the high altitude daylight map.

Yes, I'm concerned that I won't be able to administer I strong enough initial blow to make true headway into Russia. Whether my ability to redirect most of my war effort against that nation, once England falls, will pay off in the long run, only time will tell.

Well, you have until 1946 to beat both England and Russia. You might not be able to take as much advantage of Russian weakness in the first summer, which could have consequences, I suppose, but not having to deal with Command Raids or bombing raids being a general drain is not going to be a bad thing! I'm very much interested to see how you do.

On that note though - you're breaking new ground in this scenario beating England so *please* save the game before you capture the last city just in case I messed something up!

 

[tootall_2012]

Hi John,

First of all I want to say I hope you don't mind all this feedback and hopefully find it useful. If you prefer I reduce the cadence, please don't hesitate to let me know.

You will no longer have to deal with the combined bomber offensive if you conquer England. You'll also have no more commando raids, no more D-Day (though Torch and Italy are still possible), and no more cargo ship reinforcements, period, meaning that Malta and Suez are going to be in big trouble, even though you'll still need to seize them (though perhaps this really doesn't make much sense).

As indicated, I managed to capture both Bristol and Coventry on the following turn, but it was more difficult than anticipated as each city I capture generates enemy units in their vicinity and apparently American "volunteers" are showing up in greater numbers amongst their forces to aid in their resistance. I need to make haste and get this over with sooner rather than later!

They were supposed to, but I never tested it, and now I see that my choosing to use the same key for its "arrival" and its movement to the night map has likely befallen the same fate as the generals (where the game was simply doing both events at once).

Here's a quick fix. You'll need to put this in the "LuaRulesEvents" folder. Now, "u" fires the flak burst and it is on the day low alt map. "8" transfers it to the night map, and "n" transfers it to the high altitude daylight map.

Hmm, only the "u" seems to work. Nothing happens when I press on 8 and I get the following pop up when using 'n'

Well, you have until 1946 to beat both England and Russia. You might not be able to take as much advantage of Russian weakness in the first summer, which could have consequences, I suppose, but not having to deal with Command Raids or bombing raids being a general drain is not going to be a bad thing! I'm very much interested to see how you do.
On that note though - you're breaking new ground in this scenario beating England so *please* save the game before you capture the last city just in case I messed something up!

No problem. As I indicated previously, I keep a save of each turn I play. It's just easier for testing purposes, especially when you need to reproduce a bug or a situation.

 

[tootall_2012]

Hi John,

Just a quick update and 2 questions:

It's Late February 1941 and I'm continuing to make slow but methodical progress in England. The resistance continues to be much more fierce than I expected but I'm still within my original 6 to 9 turns window to complete the conquest. There's 'just' Plymouth, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow left to capture on the island.

First question: I know you mentioned I don't need to capture Scapa Flow to force Britain to surrender. But what about Belfast? Do I need to capture that city as well?

Second Question: How do you declare war on Russia? Do you need to search a specific advance or is there some other mechanism at play?

 

[JPetroski]

First question: I know you mentioned I don't need to capture Scapa Flow to force Britain to surrender. But what about Belfast? Do I need to capture that city as well?

As of right now, you have to capture Belfast, but then the reason I took out Scapa Flow was so you wouldn't need to drag boats that far up (I suppose you could use Fallschirm). I'll probably be taking Belfast out in the next release. If you're interested, you'd edit line 1085 of unitActivation.lua in the LuaRulesEvents folder and just take that city out.

Second Question: How do you declare war on Russia? Do you need to search a specific advance or is there some other mechanism at play?

Starting on turn 25 you'll get a pop up each turn asking if you want to start your invasion. You can delay it if you want, but each turn you do, Russia grows stronger, so I wouldn't recommend delaying it for much. You have to make the decision that turn at the start - you don't get to change your mind during the turn and need to wait until the next one.

 

[techumseh]

Scapa was just an anchorage with some support facilities for the fleet. It couldn't have supported the fleet for very long without all the shipyards, workshops and armories in England and Scotland, so it doesn't make sense that it would have to be captured to force a surrender. Belfast on the other hand, was (is) a large industrial city with a major shipbuilding industry. If it could maintain communications with Canada and the US, it could be a base for continued operations against the Germans.

 

[CurtSibling]

I suggest making the last hold out be Glasgow. The UK government would have retreated there for sure.
Also, it was not just the major shipyard for the Royal Navy, but most of the world at various stages.

 

[tootall_2012]

Hi John,

Sadly, for all our British forum colleagues, England has fallen in Early April 1941 . It put up a mighty struggle but in the end it was unable to overcome the superior German force arrayed against it.

I did not modify the code to adjust for Belfast as I merely opted to capture it through an airborne assault led by a Kommando unit.

I did notice a small mistake, whereby the message confirming that Germany is rewarded with 25,000 fuel for defeating England is actually granted 250,000 fuel by the code!

object.tGermany.money = object.tGermany.money + 250000

As such, I modified the line 1098 of the unitActivation.lua file to correct the mistake and reloaded the scenario prior to my capturing the final city of Glasgow.

With regards Scapa Flow, it still remains in English hands, and is actually out of reach of the 10 hex range of the Fallschirm. Under the current conditions, my transports which are still down near Dover would take a full 31 turns to reach the port city (as my transports currently only have 1 MP per turn). For my part, I would simply recommend that you turn the city over to German control once Britain surrenders.

I also found that that there are still Allied Cargo Ships out on the ocean, so I must presume that the surrender only prevents the generation of new ships but that I still should hunt down the remaining vessels. Is that correct?

I’m not certain if you saw post #64 above,whereby I confirmed that the latest changes you made with regards the Flak shells didn’t appear to work. For now, I simply reinserted the original keyPressEvents lua file.

Hmm, only the "u" seems to work. Nothing happens when I press on 8 and I get the following pop up when using 'n'
View attachment 622935

In the meantime, I did complete the conquest of Yugoslavia sometime in early 41 but as you can see, things are getting sticky in the Balkans as the British and Greeks are still well established in Greece and the first Chetnik partisans have already started showing up.

In Afrika, the British are putting up a fierce resistance near Benghazi. At first when I approached the city I managed to kill a dozen or more of their units and had reached the outskirts of the city and expected to take it the turn after. Instead on their turn they immediately launched a full scale counter attack inflicting heavy casualties (I've lost 7 DAK Shutzen and 3 DAK Panzer III so far), and forced me back from the city where we are now in a kind of stalemate.

Next turn, Late April 1941 (turn 24), my first 2 cargo ships are about to arrive safely in Tripoli and I hope they will, along with Britain's surrender, help to turn the tide.

At this point, I'm one turn or so away from being able to launch Operation Barbarossa. More on that later, but suffice it to say that to date I've assembled 181 German, 14 Hungarian, 26 Rumanian and 31 Finnish units on the border with the Soviet Union and therefore hope to be more successful in my opening moves than I previoulsy expected.

 

[techumseh]

If Britain has fallen, why do they keep fighting in Africa?

 

[tootall_2012]

For me at least I believe it makes sense. England may have fallen but the Commonwealth still exists, though one might expect no new British troops as reinforcements, or much less of them.

 

[JPetroski]

If Britain has fallen, why do they keep fighting in Africa?

Because Churchill said so

 

[JPetroski]

I did notice a small mistake, whereby the message confirming that Germany is rewarded with 25,000 fuel for defeating England is actually granted 250,000 fuel by the code!

Thanks for catching that!

For my part, I would simply recommend that you turn the city over to German control once Britain surrenders.

Yes that makes sense.

I also found that that there are still Allied Cargo Ships out on the ocean, so I must presume that the surrender only prevents the generation of new ships but that I still should hunt down the remaining vessels. Is that correct?

I mean they aren't going to do anything for the Brits - I should probably clean them up.

I’m not certain if you saw post #64 above,whereby I confirmed that the latest changes you made with regards the Flak shells didn’t appear to work. For now, I simply reinserted the original keyPressEvents lua file.

I must have sent the wrong file because it works for me. U launches the unit, 8 moves it to the night.

In Afrika, the British are putting up a fierce resistance near Benghazi

I've had the same issue with Benghazi because it is a little too far to effectively be air-covered, which makes it a pain where you can easliy overextend. I've found it gets easier after that one, but the distance is just a bit too much. Maybe I should add Ajdabiya to avoid this in the future?

 

[techumseh]

For me at least I believe it makes sense. England may have fallen but the Commonwealth still exists, though one might expect no new British troops as reinforcements, or much less of them.

As proud as I am of Canada's WW2 contribution, it only amounted to 5 divisions, 1 Group of Bomber Command, and a sizable portion of the Royal Navy's ASW force. Anyway, who am I to stand in the way of a fun scenario?

 

[CurtSibling]

Because the UK falls, it doesn't mean the Allied forces around the world disentegrate.

 

[Dadais]

Because the UK falls, it doesn't mean the Allied forces around the world disentegrate.

Seems hard to say and dependant on many factors ?

Where would be the royalty (strong point indeed, as a symbol). Captive, or fled in Canada ?
What reaction would have come from the commonwealth after the main land and main strength fall ? What weight would they represent in Europe considering the fights in eastern Asia ?

And, the important one, what is the us status at that point ?
Still neutral ? Already allied-aligned ?
If neutral, could it have represent a rally point to commonwealth countries ?
If neutral, wouldn't it have played for its benefit, igniting the larving war between soviets and nazi for their benefit ? To which point before intervention, ripping the most possible benefit ?
Would they have tried a liberation of england to avoid a nazi block too strong, and worse, chances of a continental alliance against their project ?

 

[tootall_2012]

It’s always difficult to postulate on historical what ifs but there’s no doubt that the loss of England would have been catastrophic for the British Empire’s war effort. Not only did it provide the bulk of the troops but also produced the majority of the war material for the conduct of the war. No less significantly its geographical location provided a solid strategic base for the Allied bombing campaign over the Reich, a strong transit point for the Lend-Lease convoys to Murmansk and no less importantly a pivotal base for a future invasion of Europe.

In the short term, I believe that the still significant number of British forces stationed in the Mediterranean, Middle East and Africa would have continued to fight alongside the other Commonwealth troops also deployed there.

In addition, one should not underestimate the overall contribution of the Commonwealth, of which Canada was only one member, to the British war effort. Forty percent of the 8,5 million troops that fought in England’s armies came from the CW (with India alone providing 2,5 million). Though they only provided a smaller % to the production of war materiel they were major contributors in terms of natural resources and significant contributors in financing the war (with Canada alone contributing $4 billion dollars).

These resources and manpower could easily have been harnessed by America which would undoubtedly still been have brought into the conflict by an even more emboldened Japan. Of course, by mid-1943, the Commonwealth armed forces would start to be increasingly supplied by American weapons and thus still been able to contribute to the war.

There's a brief article on the subject here and an interesting youtube video

In terms of the game itself, John has already confirmed that the surrender of England will cause the end to the Allied bombing campaign, the end of further reinforcements to Malta and Egypt (though it’s not clear if that includes Greece as well who still seem to be getting some new British units ) and most importantly NO D-DAY. This is already a significant impact.

He did indicate there’s still a possibility that there may be further Allied operations in the Mediterranean (including Torch and Husky) once America enters the war. What the conditions to prevent that are, and what role, if any, British forces would partake in said operations remains unclear. Though I would think, under the circumstances, that their participation would be minimal but only he can confirm.

Personally, I would be inclined to think that if England, France and north Africa (including Egypt) where overrun by Germany that it would be very unlikely for America to launch operations in Europe, but in game terms, that might make the scenario a little less interesting.

 

[Dadais]

It’s always difficult to postulate on historical what ifs but there’s no doubt that the loss of England would have been catastrophic for the British Empire’s war effort. Not only did it provide the bulk of the troops but also produced the majority of the war material for the conduct of the war. No less significantly its geographical location provided a solid strategic base for the Allied bombing campaign over the Reich, a strong transit point for the Lend-Lease convoys to Murmansk and no less importantly a pivotal base for a future invasion of Europe.

In the short term, I believe that the still significant number of British forces stationed in the Mediterranean, Middle East and Africa would have continued to fight alongside the other Commonwealth troops also deployed there.

In addition, one should not underestimate the overall contribution of the Commonwealth, of which Canada was only one member, to the British war effort. Forty percent of the 8,5 million troops that fought in England’s armies came from the CW (with India alone providing 2,5 million). Though they only provided a smaller % to the production of war materiel they were major contributors in terms of natural resources and significant contributors in financing the war (with Canada alone contributing $4 billion dollars).

These resources and manpower could easily have been harnessed by America which would undoubtedly still been have brought into the conflict by an even more emboldened Japan. Of course, by mid-1943, the Commonwealth armed forces would start to be increasingly supplied by American weapons and thus still been able to contribute to the war.

There's a brief article on the subject here and an interesting youtube video

In terms of the game itself, John has already confirmed that the surrender of England will cause the end to the Allied bombing campaign, the end of further reinforcements to Malta and Egypt (though it’s not clear if that includes Greece as well who still seem to be getting some new British units ) and most importantly NO D-DAY. This is already a significant impact.

He did indicate there’s still a possibility that there may be further Allied operations in the Mediterranean (including Torch and Husky) once America enters the war. What the conditions to prevent that are, and what role, if any, British forces would partake in said operations remains unclear. Though I would think, under the circumstances, that their participation would be minimal but only he can confirm.

Personally, I would be inclined to think that if England, France and north Africa (including Egypt) where overrun by Germany that it would be very unlikely for America to launch operations in Europe, but in game terms, that might make the scenario a little less interesting.

Thanks for these great explanations.

It is true US couldn't have tolerated an united europe like it couldn't tolerate URSS and japanese expansion either.

You must be close to truth with your conjectures, as must be John in HoF. Malta and Gibraltar remaining major torns in nazi's plan shall be enough for US and commonwealth to bring efforts on that front.

Could US have brought (little) efforts in icelands and feroe islands too, particulary in late war, placing fatboy in range of germany's heart ?

 

[tootall_2012]

Hi John,

Early May 1941, Operation Barbarossa launched: having assembled a force of 201 German (including 44 Panzers, 36 PzGrenadier, 20 artillery, 26 fighters and 20 bombers), 32 Finns, 13 Hungarians and 33 Rumanians, I opted to proceed with attacking Russia on the very first available turn, which also coincided with the return of summer.

As you can see from the images below, I’ve managed to make deep initial penetrations into the country, capturing the cities of Bialystok, Brest-Litovsk, Grodno, Kaunus and finally Riga along the way. I’ve also hunted down all the ‘Fleeing Civilians’ units found along my path to prevent their escape eastward to rebuild Soviet industry. For very minimal losses, I destroyed 230 Russian units of all types.

Northern sector:

Southern sector:

In the meantime, I’m in the process of transferring, along with Guderian, my twelve additional artillery units from England to the Russian front, which should greatly aid my campaign.

In the Balkans and North Africa I continue to face a stalemate but in both locations I’m in the process of bringing up reinforcements in the hope of renewing my advance.

I must have sent the wrong file because it works for me. U launches the unit, 8 moves it to the night.

I checked the latest file you sent me and it's the same as the previous one, but reloaded it all the same. Unfortunately, I'm still unable to get it to work. Steps to reproduce:

Click 88mm Flak unit located in city to activate
Once it starts flashing, click on U, at which time for me it automatically launches it onto the night time map

Not sure why were getting different results.

I've had the same issue with Benghazi because it is a little too far to effectively be air-covered, which makes it a pain where you can easliy overextend. I've found it gets easier after that one, but the distance is just a bit too much. Maybe I should add Ajdabiya to avoid this in the future?

On which tile exactly would it be located? Something like 163, 203? Close enough for Me-109's to reach Benghazi as well or a different location?

 

[Dadais]

I opted to proceed with attacking Russia on the very first available turn, which also coincided with the return of summer.

Little question @JPetroski :
Are we punished enough if, not ready, barbarossa is still launched early, proceeding with a "drole de guerre" time for troops to come back from another front ?