The Immortal Challenge Lineup - Game #1

Strange in my game I don't remember seeing Pacal lol! Did you mean Inca, his name starts with a P too!? Your funny with the Kool Aid pics! I like the old school one on the other post but this one is a bit gruesome for my taste lol. Hey maybe you meant Persia that starts with a P too :)
 
Whoops! Pachacuti. In my notes I was writing Pac and I got confused. :crazyeye:

Spoiler :
A lot of firsts in this game: first Zero, first use of paradrop/pillage, first captured Great Works (in USA Deity game, all of Pac's cities were empty, WTF?), first demand on other civs (was trying to instigate wars with Pac and Assyria), and could have had my first DV a long time ago, but it seemed too easy. I am at 233 tourism and 583 culture currently.

I think I have had BB's for like 60 turns, just sitting there, so decided to use them, haven't seen any others yet. I decided to beeline Stealth, that will be a first too. I know where several of Attila's subs are, so it is really tempting to DOW him to try to sink them all in one turn. I had been thinking of taking Pac and Venice for the wonders and art, and going Internet, then seeing if I finish SS first or back into a CV without any Aesthetics. But Heile and Venice hate Attila, so I should leave them for last, as the trades and routes are good.

This game has been silly, what with going Tradition Wide, no Patronage until recently, although I did finish Rat.
 
This sounds fun, but there does not appear to be an option to Disable DLC in a Single Player Game. Are we supposed to play a Multiplayer Game by ourselves? Additionally, how do we save our maps and where does the file end up so I can upload it?
 
Immortal newbie here. I've played two games on Immortal before, and suffice it to say, the results were underwhelming. I bailed out of my first game as the Zulu once it became obvious my dirt was just terrible (it was an island with few hills, so to get any kind of productivity I needed Lumber Mills) and my second game as Babylon ended when Rome rushed me ~T80 with like 10-15 units. I had 2-3 Archers, LOL. Apparently this difficulty punishes a player who doesn't focus on an early defense, or offense as it might be. I'm more of a builder than a warmongerer, so I tend to focus mostly on infrastructure on the lower difficulties, where you can get away with that.

So yeah, I had my work cut out for me.

Reading how everyone else approached this game has been interesting. I like that any approach on this map seems to be viable and how everyone's attacked it in a different way.

Anyway, I'm going to get on with it. I took a bunch of notes during this game, but I'm going to try and make them into something more interesting to read. I have a tendency to make tl;dr posts so I'll type a tl;dr up that summarizes the game.


Spoiler The Game :
This game is a crash course in Things Not To Do, but that will become obvious... later.



I settled Kyoto on the Gold on the hill, as you can see. I kind of wish I had settled on the Silver because 3 Fish (and Oil later, which I never got around to improving), but then I would have had too few workable tiles.

Early build order was 2 Scouts, a Shrine, a Granary, and two Settlers. I can't really remember what I had Kyoto do after that.

I moved my Warrior north and found the first Ruins of my game. I don't recall getting all that many Ruins in this game (maybe 3 at best? I know I got +1 pop from one.), but this Ruins turned out to be the most vital of all: 20 Culture. I put this into early Tradition because I'm the turtling to Science/Culture Victory sort, so odds are I'm not going to get more than four cities. As it turns out, I was right, but more on that later.

The next Ruins revealed Sofia for me. I'd rather have proc'd something else, like a tech, but I knew I found one of my targets for a Worker steal. I learned that tactic thanks to lurking here and try to use it even on the lower levels, even if waiting for a CS to hammer a Worker out takes a while. It frees up what would otherwise be a crowded build order for a little warmongering penalty that fades later, so I love the tactic.

I met Songhai on T8, the Inca and Zurich on T22, Venice T31, Assyria T32, the Huns on T43, and Ethiopia/Persia way later. My notes don't have that and I totally forgot to write it down when I did, but it was a lot later. I'd estimate ~T90 or later for both.

Stole Workers from Sofia and Zurich by T34. The resting point for my influence with Sofia was -20 for the whole game, which kind of sucks since I like Militaristic CS allies for the free troops, but I made do. Nobody in the game appreciated my early "warmongering" (I prefer to think of it as "Worker redistribution"), but whatever. I sent these Workers to Kyoto and Osaka, and built a third one later for Tokyo.



On that note, founded Osaka T38 and Tokyo T47. Tokyo isn't shown, which I think was an error on my part. Unlike many of you guys, I was too meek to do some of the more aggressive settling I've seen in these posts. kb27787's Kyoto stands out in my mind as an extremely aggressive tactic. Me, I'm just too peaceful and too afraid to be overly aggressive. Still, I knew war was inevitable, so my new priorities were obvious: One, cobble something resembling a defense force together before Songhai decides to invade, and two, prepare for the NC.

I wish I had known about the mountain by Venice WAY earlier. That would have been an amazing spot. I sent both Scouts west because I'm silly and did not think there was much land to the southeast of Zurich/Kabul. Of my many mistakes, I feel this was one of the bigger ones; it'd have made me take Optics earlier so I could send a Settler over there.

I got a Pantheon at T42, took Religious Idols because of all the Gold/Silver this spot gives you. I also got a religion, but I managed to do approximately nothing with it because my faith generation was absolutely terrible. I didn't even buy Missionaries because I was not sure I'd get enough faith for the late game Great People I buy. I can normally get something like 40-50 FPT, which is enough to meet my needs, but I got nowhere near that this game. It was a constant 10-15 a turn, and that just isn't going to get the job done.

I noticed Songhai had two Warriors and two Archers positioned ominously, so I sent them on a little trip to the Inca. It only cost me 3 GPT and my Silver, which was AWESOME. If there's anything I love about Immortal, it's the ease of getting AI to declare wars on each other. The 4 Happiness wasn't needed at the time, so whatever. I can't get the AI to declare war all that often for the life of me on lower difficulties. I know it's *possible*, but they aren't as receptive and it costs more.

Became friends with Venice on T54 and denounced the Huns T69. Venice denounced them first I believe, but I waited until other civs were doing it, then I bandwagoned harder than the average Miami Heat fan and got dat diplo modifier. This resulted in Friendly almost across the board. For the most part, I maintained those Friendlies throughout the game, even when Ideology became important.



Built the Temple of Artemis on T84 while waiting around for Tokyo to build its Library. OMG FIRST IMMORTAL WONDER!!!112! I had nothing better to do in Kyoto. With all the overlap between workable tiles, the 10% bonus was appreciated, though I don't know how tangible of an effect it had on my game. Ah well. I bought Osaka's Library because its production is abysmal and built the NC on T93.

Songhai looked like it wanted to declare war again, so I bribed them to fight against Ethiopia for 2 GPT and my Silver. Whatever, still didn't need it. I don't know if they actually *did* anything, but I know most AIs don't like war on more than one front even if they could easily do so (if it were smarter, Songhai would have realized I'm a lovely target), so whatever.

Education T119 because I'm so zetta slow. I detoured for Construction because Composite Bowmen/slight Happiness problems and grabbed Sailing when it reached one turn, but other than that I went straight for Education. Started on my Universities since I had no money to buy any. Kyoto got its Uni up T125, Tokyo T130, and let's not speak of the slowpokes in Osaka. (I put my Ironworks in Osaka because the build times were unbearable otherwise.)

I got a religion at some point. Beliefs were Religious Idols/Tithe/Religious Community/Swords Into Plowshares/Religious Texts. I just put this here because it's about where it was in my notes, but yeah, didn't spread this to my cities as I should have done. Just terrible. I regret not naming it "Sharknado", in honor of Sharknado 2 tonight. That is going to be my next religion though.

Venice entered the Renaissance first, on T139. That's never happened to me before. It felt like a "Welcome to Immortal you big n00b" moment. I kept my spy in Kyoto because I was only one tech behind the leader. Maybe I could have went to steal but I thought, "what's the use?" On the tech note, for much of this game, everyone was within two techs of each other. I found this kind of sad, considering I don't think I played an exceptional game by any means.

And now it's time for this game's big mistake. THE mistake, the one that affected my endgame to an insane extent. I decided around T150 that it mite b cool to go Culture. Ha. Ha. Ha. That's a good one. What I neglected to do was check out the Culture Victory landscape. Ethiopia had all the Tourism ever, and Venice was the game's wonder whore/the Culture runaway, thus ensuring I'd have a rough go of it. I think I had 2 Tourism at this point, but I was thinking, "hey, maybe I can beeline The Internet and catch up, as opposed to having to go through much of the tech tree for Science." That did not even come CLOSE to happening.

At least I got control of the World Congress on T157 after discovering Printing Press? I proposed Arts Funding, which the AI loves and which helps my attempt at a Culture win.

Persia was eliminated by the Huns on T174. Whatever, they weren't a part of the cool kids' group anyway, aka Japan/Venice/Inca/Assyria. I got Pisa on T181, took the Engineer, and built the Uffizi. In retrospect I'd still like the Engie but I'd probably have built something else. Not Porcelain Tower because that took Osaka ten turns and nobody ever takes Rationalism. Idk what, though, because I can't think of a relevant Wonder from the era that wasn't taken.

Askia decides that right after I research Scientific Theory (~T185) is a good time to declare war because he apparently hates further education, sake, sushi, anime, and all that is good, so he rolls up and declares war on T187. I see 16(!) troops on-screen, as compared to my tiny defense force of ~10 troops. All of these are Crossbowmen at this point, luckily.

I've never seen the amount of troops he threw at me during this war. I got two Great Generals out of it, so I assume it was a lot. I'd estimate that overall, I killed 30+ before he was willing to talk peace. Even then the "What would you like for this?" button said "Tokyo". Not happening, you couldn't even take that on 0 life. It's not like I intentionally targeted his melee troops or anything, just so he couldn't take it...

The end of this war got kind of tense; I thought I would lose Tokyo/possibly the game. It turned out to be a white peace on T207, at which point I got back to the pressing business of building Public Schools. It probably helped I bribed Assyria into declaring war against him a few turns before. Next screenie is right after the war.



WELL, LOOK WHO WANTS TO BE FRIENDS NEXT TURN! Oh Askia, you're lucky that I am a forgiving sucker. Even so, I had reasons for accepting this. If he backstabbed, it would result in a negative diplo modifier, and most of the world liked me. I could probably send my friends after him for very cheap. If he didn't, it would be 50+ turns of much needed peace. As it turned out, he was a loyal friend for much of the game, only going to Guarded late.

I tried to win the World's Fair but lost by ~100 hammers to Ethiopia on T231. This is one of those "hindsight is 20/20" things, but I should have just accepted the free social policy and saved the hammers. Wound up taking Cultural Centers with the free policy and Flourishing of the Arts next turn.

Suddenly, Songhai denouncements. I'd have considered it when our DoF ended, but he's my neighbor and since I play peacefully most games, I need a relationship good enough to deter war. On that note, I look up and see my bribed war was a great success for my Assyrian bros, since they took one of Songhai's cities.

Saw a 10(!) Aluminum tile in my territory on T232 after discovering Electricity. Not important in the least, but I've never seen it before. Is this only possible on Immortal/Deity?

The first Ideology goes to the Huns at T245. Gee, I wonder what they'll take! If you guessed Autocracy, you get a cookie. Chocolate chip. I backed into Freedom because Modern Era on T249, the Inca follow up with Order on T254. Ethiopia also takes Order and the Ideological pressure causes Attila to switch to Order. Good job, good effort. I had some Unhappiness issues too, but the lowest was -6 I believe, so I kept repping Freedom.

Ethiopia has a lot of influence over everyone and seems to be at peace, so I bribed Attila into declaring war on them. 3 GPT and 5 Aluminum for someone who was Hostile to me is ridiculously cheap. After this point, he turned to Friendly, but it was a fake friendly; my Diplomat revealed two sneak attacks he was going to launch on me. (I bribed him into going to war with other civs, the silly goose.)

I bribed my fellow civs to go to war for much of the second half of the game. I didn't want them looking at my lands and my small defense force and seeing me as a good target. Luckily they liked me and would declare war for next to nothing at all. It was often <5 GPT and a resource. At this point, I spent my time building vital infrastructure - Factories, Hospitals, Research Labs, etc.

International Games pass T301 and predictably I lose to Assyria. Idk how they managed to win this despite being at war with Songhai but whatever. I also lost the Statue of Liberty to Venice, argh! If I were playing Science I'd have ignored the project altogether.

I realize around T330 (after I researched The Internet - I'd place that around T315-320? Really, REALLY slow.) that I'll probably have to go through the tech tree anyway and switch gears. I build the Apollo Project in Osaka on T353, research Satellites on T356, and save a GE for the Hubble in my capital. The other slowpokes in the game start getting their Apollo Projects around T375, but by this point I have two parts. In other news, Songhai is taken out of the game on T360.

Spent my lousy 2k faith on a Great Artist for a Golden Age and a Great Engineer for a Wonder. I would have gotten a Scientist instead of the Engineer, but I never completed Rationalism. *hangs head in shame* Interestingly enough, the GE *fails* to get me the CN Tower, so I get a ton of fail gold. Not even mad, I used that money to buy the SS Engine.

The biggest effect my Culture "attempt" had on my endgame was not being able to complete Rationalism. I would have had 3 more policies had I taken Space Procurements as my first level 3 tenet, thus I would have finished Rationalism. I estimate it would have saved me at least 20 turns.

At T389 I have 5 parts. It's simple at this point: If I make it to Nanotechnology first, I win. I buy the SS Stasis Chamber and launch the next turn. If someone pulls a ship out of their posterior, I lose.

I got a #based Great Scientist sometime around T385-390 and saved it for 8 turns away from Nanotechnology. I don't remember, but that guy was so clutch. By the time I popped him, Pachacuti had three parts, Attila had three as well, and Venice had its first part. Nobody else had any parts. I thought for a little bit that Pachacuti or Attila would build every part in the space of a few turns and beat me by a turn or something.

But no, that didn't happen. I launch T404 for my first Immortal win!



This was not my finest hour, but I somehow won. My thought process was basically, "I won't have to go through the tech tree if I go for Culture, which means my low Science output won't be such an issue." Except, I had two culture runaways and a wonder whore, so that didn't work. If I had went Science, I wouldn't have had to worry so much about what other civs are doing and I could have focused on Science from the get-go. I'm not going to pretend I'd have approached any of your times (I'm not that good, I don't put effort into micromanagement, etc), but I'd have had a better win time for sure.



Fluphen Azine said:
I just feel that we should not be allowed to push the game to turn 400 on Imm and still win although I did not create this game and if that is how they want it I guess that is how it is going to be.

Yeah, about that... *cough*

I totally agree. It's nice to get my first win on this difficulty level, but I played a bad game and yet I knew I would win from about T350 on because I kept the AI fighting each other for almost the entire second half of the game. I poured so much effort into something that did not work out (lol Culture) and my tech rate was pretty low throughout the game. I should have to put in some degree of optimization, which would imply knowing what I'll be doing, but NOPE. I changed my mind late-game and still won. I understand that this should be possible on lower difficulties, but not ones intended to be a challenge like Immortal.



Spoiler tl;dr :
-Settled Kyoto on the Gold hill
-Early BO was 2 Scouts, Shrine, Granary, 2 Settlers
-Discovered Sofia rather early, Songhai T8, deduce the presence of the Celts or Ethiopia from T11 pantheon (Sacred Path), meet Inca/Zurich T22, Venice T31, Assyria T32, Persia and Ethopia later on in the game (post-T90, I think)
-Founded Osaka T38, Tokyo T47
-Bribed Songhai into war against the Inca T54 to prevent them from declaring on me
-Denounced the Huns T69, got a bunch of Friendlies that I turned into reliable friends
-Built ToA in Kyoto T83, NC in Kyoto T93
-Education T119
-Venice entered the Renaissance on T139, I kept the spy at home
-Religion was Religious Idols/Tithe/Religious Community/Swords Into Plowshares/Religious Texts
-Decided on Culture around T150. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, that did not go as planned AT ALL
-Researched PP T157, got control of the WC, proposed Arts Funding
-Persia is eliminated on T174. We were never friends, doooooon't caaaaaare.
-Built Pisa T181, took the Engineer, built Uffizi
-Scientific Theory ~T185, Songhai declared war T187
-Sent more troops than I have ever seen, but beat them back and got a white peace T207
-Songhai wanted to be friends on T208. Accepted, knowing either way I benefit
-WF started T221, lost it T230 to Ethiopia. Took Cultural Centers, then Flourishing of the Arts next turn
-Huns take Autocracy T245, I take Freedom T250, Inca take Order T254, Ethiopia takes Order. Attila is forced to switch to Order
-IG passed T301, lose it to Assyria at T310. Lose SoL to Venice in the process. If I were any smarter I'd have realized this was my last gasp at a Culture game. That took 20 more turns.
-Discovered Internet around T315-320, I think. Way too slow in any case.
-Build Apollo T353, research Satellites T356, use a GE on the Hubble
-Songhai is taken out T360
-Apollo Programs are being built around T375, but I'm up by two parts
-Up by 5 parts on T389
-Pachacuti and Attila make a late-game push, but they fail and I launch on T404
 
Gj Gileh :)
Next time after ST go directly for radio, so you get into Modern era asap and get faster ideologies + two of the good CV wonders. After that just get Archeology , beeline Plastics and go directly to Internet. Stuff like Fertilizer and Chemistry are not really important.

Winning international projects on 3 cities is too hard. Esp when the cities are not that great at production as I'd imagine.
 
Yup, I went for Chem/Fertilizer before Plastics. I thought the bonuses would be helpful, but I suppose if not getting them ensures I get faster Plastics/whatever other techs I need, then it might be worth forgoing them. I'll try that in the next game I play.

I've never really understood Archaeology outside of the Museums. I tend not to build Archaeologists because I feel like there are better things to build. At that point of the game, I want things like Factories, Hospitals, and all that stuff. Why would you build them? Is it because you need more stuff to fill your Great Works slots?

And yeah, the production of these cities wasn't all that great.

Anyway, thanks. =]
 
I am curious, why in my game Darius Become supper power, but for everyone else it is huns?
 
Yup, I went for Chem/Fertilizer before Plastics. I thought the bonuses would be helpful, but I suppose if not getting them ensures I get faster Plastics/whatever other techs I need, then it might be worth forgoing them. I'll try that in the next game I play.

I've never really understood Archaeology outside of the Museums. I tend not to build Archaeologists because I feel like there are better things to build. At that point of the game, I want things like Fatcories, Hospitals, and all that stuff. Why would you build them? Is it because you need more stuff to fill your Great Works slots?

And yeah, the production of these cities wasn't all that great.

Anyway, thanks. =]

Well, you build em so you can fill your slots with works to get more tourism. If you match the requirements in the Museums and wonders, you get bonus too.

Also - if you have antiquity sites in your borders (within the 3 rings in the city), you can make a landmark, that provides culture (and with hotels - tourism).

Basicly your goal is to get as many artifacts as possible. You can get one from each civ without diplo hit too, you just need open borders with them. And you can get the rest from empty spaces, CS , etc.

For CV you need as much tourism as possible, so you should never skip that part.
Thats why you should concentrate on wonders that can hold artifacts (as sometimes you cannot get em all) - Uffizi and Louvre especially. You have more artifact slots in the Hermitage and the Museums as well.
 
I am curious, why in my game Darius Become supper power, but for everyone else it is huns?

Well Atilla is on top of the early food chain. Probably in your game he had some sort of setback in the start. I've seen him go big almost all games where he is not my direct neighbour :)
 
Hmm, did the OP want us to use his Map? If so why did he mention a Shuffle Map? I am game but I think I messed up on the rules :(
 
Hmm, did the OP want us to use his Map? If so why did he mention a Shuffle Map? I am game but I think I messed up on the rules :(
The way the challenge works is that they found an interesting map. You download it and play it. He mentioned it was shuffle. Normally its Pangaea or continents and people adapt play style based on that. OP liked that it was shuffle so we wouldn't purposely build monument or double scout or something.
 
The way the challenge works is that they found an interesting map. You download it and play it. He mentioned it was shuffle. Normally its Pangaea or continents and people adapt play style based on that. OP liked that it was shuffle so we wouldn't purposely build monument or double scout or something.

Cool, thanks for the clarification. Challenge accepted.
 
Spoiler :
Well, I got my highest score ever, 4,905. I could have won DV in about 13 turns (could have been much earlier if I had DOW'd Venice to get Forbidden Palace, I assume). Could have taken out Venice and Ethiopia and won Dom in about 12 turns too, but I got so bored moving units around. I finally just fortified everything and let the clock run out on the last part. :)

I did see one battleship, and subs were around for quite a while, but Venice still had Frigates, Triplanes, Infantry. I was into Future tech, LOL. I had never used Stealth before, I only had like 8 of them, and like 9 Jet Fighters, 3 XCom. It was just too easy to take cities. By capturing strategic cities I could bomb with Stealth and take with XCom, and my army was still not even half way across the ocean. Very weird, I had way too many units to manage, I had like 4 good-sized forces. Weird to build carriers for only one assault and then put them in mothballs!

With no Aesthetics I was still pumping out 752 Tourism, and I even quit caring about theming Museums, the management screen was a nightmare. I had 28 Wonders (hard-built a ton of them) and all the Culture ones were themed. Almost 900 culture/turn, 2k science, cap only grew to about 25, I quit growing it. All the cities I captured had great buildings, or built what I needed quickly, so I only sold a few off to Heile. All the Inca ones had enough happy buildings (plus Order tenet buildings) to only give me the -4 happy hit.

So a very strange game - the Wide Tradition unfocused play. I needed all of Order's happy tenets, and built Zoos everywhere, Stadiums for the last push. Never had neg. happy. That was a really cool map, thanks Gustavus Rex!
 
Domination victory at T169
Spoiler :


Nothing out of the ordinary, 3 cities liberty kill 2-3 AI with CB (killed Askia with archers actually lol) rest with XB and Ethiopia with 5 Galleas. Hardest to kill was Attila, map is pretty hard to travel and many capitals are well protected. Used some city peace gifts from Ethiopia and Attila to help make capital conquest easier.
 
Spoiler :
Well, I got my highest score ever, 4,905. I could have won DV in about 13 turns (could have been much earlier if I had DOW'd Venice to get Forbidden Palace, I assume). Could have taken out Venice and Ethiopia and won Dom in about 12 turns too, but I got so bored moving units around. I finally just fortified everything and let the clock run out on the last part. :)

I did see one battleship, and subs were around for quite a while, but Venice still had Frigates, Triplanes, Infantry. I was into Future tech, LOL. I had never used Stealth before, I only had like 8 of them, and like 9 Jet Fighters, 3 XCom. It was just too easy to take cities. By capturing strategic cities I could bomb with Stealth and take with XCom, and my army was still not even half way across the ocean. Very weird, I had way too many units to manage, I had like 4 good-sized forces. Weird to build carriers for only one assault and then put them in mothballs!

With no Aesthetics I was still pumping out 752 Tourism, and I even quit caring about theming Museums, the management screen was a nightmare. I had 28 Wonders (hard-built a ton of them) and all the Culture ones were themed. Almost 900 culture/turn, 2k science, cap only grew to about 25, I quit growing it. All the cities I captured had great buildings, or built what I needed quickly, so I only sold a few off to Heile. All the Inca ones had enough happy buildings (plus Order tenet buildings) to only give me the -4 happy hit.

So a very strange game - the Wide Tradition unfocused play. I needed all of Order's happy tenets, and built Zoos everywhere, Stadiums for the last push. Never had neg. happy. That was a really cool map, thanks Gustavus Rex!

Good game and congratulations to your high score! :goodjob:
 
Domination victory at T169
Spoiler :


Nothing out of the ordinary, 3 cities liberty kill 2-3 AI with CB (killed Askia with archers actually lol) rest with XB and Ethiopia with 5 Galleas. Hardest to kill was Attila, map is pretty hard to travel and many capitals are well protected. Used some city peace gifts from Ethiopia and Attila to help make capital conquest easier.

Very impressive!

You have the fastest domination win so far! :cool:
 
This Map seems to require an early game Domination Rush across frustratingly difficult terrain, which stopped being fun after my fourth attempt. My hat is off to the people who completed this Warmonger Challenge though.
 
"Requires" only if you want the fastest time. If you're looking to simply win by domination you can try artillery + frigates. Artillery should make short work of Assyria + Persia (+ Askia if you let him live) and every other cap is on the coast.
 
On wednesday it's time for the next immortal challenge lineup! :king:

If you have a fun and interesting map you want me to post now or in the future, please send it to immortalchallengelineup@gmail.com with a short description of what makes you like it.

I'm also glad to take suggestions and requests on what type of civ/map you would like to play.
 
"Requires" only if you want the fastest time. If you're looking to simply win by domination you can try artillery + frigates. Artillery should make short work of Assyria + Persia (+ Askia if you let him live) and every other cap is on the coast.

I think I get bogged down too much in the early game. I seem to be able to keep pace with AI's technology but never quite surpass them on Immortal or Deity. I also need to brush up on combating Runaway AI's I think.
 
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