The inevitable leaders thread

[Skyre Noktis]

I'm still seeing this:

Alexander as a Greek leader will be a problem, then.

Alexander [was] Macedonian and not greek but he was the closest there is to a historical ruler of all Greece.

You are all aware that there's a big difference between the ancient state of Macedonia and the modern (controversially named) Republic of Macedonia, right? Alexander was a Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)

 

[climat]

I just want to be sarcastic about nipticking people

 

[Virote_Considon]

Just so long as Solomon isn't Palestine's second leader, I'm happy.

 

[Dragonflow]

We don't know if Alexander will be leading the Greeks this time. Maybe Firaxis will use an Byzantine Emperor this time around.
I would like to see the Persians have a diffenrent leader this time, a Sassanid Emperor would be good instead of the typical Achaemenid Emperors. I think Shapur I would be a good new Persian leader.

 

[Sian]

Well, we don't have any pictures of them but a danish magazine says that they are the leaders for their civs.

near miss there ... the magazine does in fact have pictures of Elizabeth, Stalin and Napoleon, made similar to the shown pictures of Washinton and Bismarck

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

I'm still seeing this:

You are all aware that there's a big difference between the ancient state of Macedonia and the modern (controversially named) Republic of Macedonia, right? Alexander was a Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)

No, Alexander was a Macedonian, he was not from the Panhellenic world. Much as the Macedonians tried to be, to all of the Greek city states he was a barbarian and uncivilized.

Edit: Speaking of the leaders pictured in the Danish magazine, does anyone have scans so we can Elizabeth, Stalin and Napoleon?

 

[Dragonflow]

near miss there ... the magazine does in fact have pictures of Elizabeth, Stalin and Napoleon, made similar to the shown pictures of Washinton and Bismarck

Well, I said that there are no pictures since I couldn't find the scans online. Do you know a website where they can be seen?

 

[Eduardo Dacal]

My idea for leaders for civs that will probably be in: (the one I'd suggest if they do just one leader/civ in bold)
America: Washington, Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt
Germany: Charlemagne, Frederick Barbarossa, Bismarck
Egypt: Ramesses II and either Hatshepsut or Cleopatra
Greece: Pericles, Leonidas, Alexander
Rome: Julius Caesar, Augustus, and Traianus or Constantinus I
Britain: Richard I, Elizabeth I, Victoria
France: Jeanne D'Arc, Louis XIV, Napoleon I
Russia: Peter, Catherine, Stalin
China: Qin Shi Huang, one of the Ming emperors, Mao
India: Ashoka, the dude that built the Taj Mahal, Gandhi
Persia: Cyrus, Xerxes
Japan: Tokugawa, Meiji
Aztecs: Atototzli, Moctezuma
Mongols: Chingis Khan, Kublai Khan
Arabia: Abu Bakr, Saladin

And for the civs that have a reasonable chance to be one of the three others:
Zulu: Shaka
Inca: Pachacamac, Huayna Capac
Maya: Pacal II
Ethiopia: Haile Selassie, Zara Yaqob
Spain: Carlos I, Isabella
Netherlands: Willem van Oranje, Johan de Witt
Turkey: Mehmed II, Suleiman, Atatürk
Mali: Mansa Musa
Iroquios: Hiawatha
Babylon: Hammurabi, Nebuchadnezzar
Cathage: Hannibal

The name of the Inca Leader is Pachacutec. Pachacamac is a name of a Pre Incan city (Ishma culture) close to the actual Lima.

 

[Dachs]

Egypt: Not Cleaopatra, not Ramesses II whose main accomplishments were losing a war and ruinig Egypts economy with monuments to his vanity. Not Hatshepsut who was probably just picked because she is a woman like Cleapotra but at least not Greek so she'd cause less nerd rage. My choice would be Thutmose III.

Of all the Egyptian suggestions I would agree with this one the most.

I think Shapur I would be a good new Persian leader.

Not Shapur II?

i think parthia was a pretty cool guy. eh takes over iran and aniran and doesnt afraid of anything

 

[cybrxkhan]

The Parthians were a group of people, not a guy, but a Parthian leader nevertheless would be interesting. For a Sassanid leader, I would prefer Khosrau, but I think Firaxis will stick with an Achaemenid leader. The only three real choices are Cyrus, Darius, and Xerxes. I hope they don't do Xerxes, and choose the other two instead.

 

[Voyhkah]

Hatshepsut was (aside from being a woman) a great politician, economist, and monumant builder. She seriously improved the infrastructure of Egypt, made a major trade mission to punt, and sucessfully (and peacefully) ruled up until her death.

I think she should and will be included.

In my Civ IV mod she is Economical and Industrious.

EDIT:

G.W. Bush

Bush? AAAAAhhhhhhhh!!!!

Cleopatra was barely a leader and not really an egyptian. I totally agree that she shouldn't be put in.

 

[Sian]

Well, I said that there are no pictures since I couldn't find the scans online. Do you know a website where they can be seen?

as far as i know? ... no

but they are there that i can promise you ...

 

[j51]

I really do hope they include multiple leaders per civ. It would suck to have only Stalin for the Russians, or Mao for China. (We all know that Mao will be included. )
Also, while I'd agree he is the most important German leader, I hope they offer more than stodgy old Bismarck. I've personally been a big Fred fan ever since Civ I. Any how, here's my Ideal list - ignoring the facts on the ground and the probabilities. I've placed my/if only picks in bold like previous posters:

Most Likely Included Civs:
American - Washington, Lincoln, FDR
Arabian - Umar, Harun al-Rashid, Saladin
Aztec - Moctezuma I
Chinese - Qin Shi Huangdi, Taizong, Jianwen
Egyptian - Hatshepsut, Akhenaten, Ramesses II
English - Elizabeth, Victoria, Churchill
French - Henry IV, Louis XIV, Napoleon
German - Frederick II of Prussia, Maria Theresa, Bismarck
Greek - Pericles, Lysander (or another Spartan), Alexander
Indian - Asoka, Chandragupta II (or Akbar), Gandhi
Japanese - Prince Shitoku, Hideyoshi (or Nobunaga), Tokugawa
Mongolian - Chingis Khan, Kublai Khan
Persian - Cyrus II, Darius, Shapur
Roman - Julius Caesar, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius
Russian - Peter, Catherine II, V.I. Lenin (or Ivan IV)
Spanish - Isabella, Philip II, Charles III

Some Other Civs That Could Pop Up at Some Point:
Babylonian - Hammurabi, Nebuchadnezzar II
Byzantine - Constantine, Justinian (because he's fun)
Carthaginian - Dido*, Hannibal
Celtic (whatever) - Boudica
Dutch - Maurice of Nassau
Ethiopian - Ezana, Menelik II
Inca - Tupac Yupanqi
Khmer - Survaryaman II
Korean - Wang Kong
Mali - Sundiata Keita*, Mansa Musa
Maya - Pacal II, (someone else?)
Ottoman - Mehmet II, Suleiman!
Portuguese - Joao II
Sumerian - Ur-Nammu (or Gilgamesh*)
Viking - Ragnar Lodbrok*, Canute
Zulu (meh) - Shaka

I put stars next to semi-legendary leaders, because I'm not sure they should be included ideally. Also, I know Victoria was a figurehead, but she was the Head of State of the UK at or near its apex. As for Maria Theresa, I think it makes sense given how she was in Civ II and that the civs represent cultures more than states (ala Greece). They could even have a feature with multiple states within a civ and you have to lead one to power within your civ as well as without. Anywho... cheers

 

[iceman30]

My proposed alterations from Civ 4 BTS:

Arabs: Harun al-Rashid and Abu Bakr (Mohammed would be better, but oh well) added, Saladin dropped (Saladin wasn't even Arab and ruled during a rather mediocre moment in Islamic history that we only remember because it involved Europeans. Bakr helped propell one of the greatest conquests in history, and Rashid ruled at the peak of the Islamic Golden Age).

China: Mao Zedong dropped, Wu Di and Deng Xiaoping added (Deng inaugurated the greatest economic expansion in history, Wu Di led the greatest territorial expansion of China, Mao fought an admittedly impressive guerilla war and then systematically destoryed his nation's economy and culture).

India: Add Chandragupta and Akbar, remove Gandhi (The idea of pacifistic Gandhi as the political leader of an empire is nonsensical. Chandragupta founded the Mauryan dynasty and would make an awesome warmonger, Akbar was the greatest ruler in the Mogul period which is when the Taj Mahal was built).

Japan: Emperor Meji added (Japan enters his rule at risk of colonization, exits a world power that can hand Russia its ass)

Celts: Kick Brennus.

Ethiopia: Kick Zara Yaqob, add Menelik II (only African leader to successfully resist colonization)

Remove Native America (doesn't fit the game's implicit definition of a civ)

Add Latin America, leader Simon Bolivar (wasn't politically united, but was linked by similar history and language)

 

[Sian]

Japan: Emperor Meji added (Japan enters his rule at risk of colonization, exits a world power that can hand China and later Russia its ass)

Add Latin America, leader Simon Bolivar (wasn't politically united, but was linked by similar history and language)

uhh ... i know Simon Bolivar was de-facto leader of Greater Columbia, but what did Greater Columbia actually do which is acknowlegded as an importent feat economicly, socially, policitally or mitilary? everyone else (expect Native America which you've allready handled) fits at least one of those bills

 

[The Capo]

It will definitely piss me off if they don't allow for multiple leaders. I make leaderheads damn it!

 

[The Capo]

No, Alexander was a Macedonian, he was not from the Panhellenic world. Much as the Macedonians tried to be, to all of the Greek city states he was a barbarian and uncivilized.

This is basically not true, and if they only have one leader I can guarantee you Alexander will be the leader for Greece. He certainly was from the "pan-hellenic" world, he basically created the hellenic world when he spread Greek culture all over the eastern med and middle east. He was certainly lauded and celebrated by Greeks after his conquests. And Macedon was certainly hellenic, they spoke Greek too. Certain Greek city-states may have considered the Macedonians backwards, particularly Athens, but this was mostly due to their jealousy over Macedonian power at the time. I should also mention that Macedon kept Greece pretty safe from barbarian invasions, and was a huge power-player in Greece even before Alexander.

 

[cybrxkhan]

uhh ... i know Simon Bolivar was de-facto leader of Greater Columbia, but what did Greater Columbia actually do which is acknowlegded as an importent feat economicly, socially, policitally or mitilary? everyone else (expect Native America which you've allready handled) fits at least one of those bills

Simon Bolivar was very important in bringing South America much independence, and he is considered essentially the George Washington of a whole ton of Latin American countries. Hell, he's the only guy who has a country named after him.

That said, Gran Columbia itself didn't last that long, so it's "claim to fame", so to speak, rests solely on Simon Bolivar. As much as I think Bolivar deserves to be in Civilization, we don't add civilizations just because their leaders are great or famous or what not - otherwise we'd already have Attila of the Huns, for example - so personally although I'd like to see Bolivar in, I can easily (and probably agree with) why he isn't in the game in the end.

 

[j51]

Wu Di is a great pick.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Come to think of it, one thing I've noticed in previous civ games was the abhorent lack of medieval European leaders. Sure, Medieval Europe may not have been as great as the Victorians thought it was, but there were lots of good leaders from that period regardless. Some possibilities to throw out:

- Spain: Afonso X, El Cid (maybe)
- France: Philip Augustus
- England: William the Conqueror, Richard the Lionheart, one of the Edwards (can't remember which), Alfred the Great
- Germany: Charlemagne (maybe), Otto I, Frederick Barbarossa, Maximilian I


Unfortunately I find it inevitable that there won't be a lot of medieval leaders from Europe, which I find kind of surprising, since a number of them are fairly well known and wouldn't hurt game sales.