The Jotnar in Wildmana

[Hellsau]

So that city is still missing a population point. Growth, anarchy, and specialists all can't recover it. The yields aren't big for that tile on the world map anymore, and when I built a farm on the tile, it didn't change the base yields of the city. Weird bug.

Some more strangeness:

Popped an adventurer, but they cannot be upgraded to Hill Giants. They can be upgraded to Wild Trolls and Wielder of Arms.

Pact of the Nilhorn hill giants aren't the same as the Jotnar's, so they cannot be upgraded. Feels strange and underpowered.

I haven't bothered going down the arcane line, since adepts are blocked. Are their mages simply upgraded from citizens?

Should Giantkin grant extra work rate? I would think a bunch of giants could get as much or more done than some puny humans. The Jotnar Worker has the giantkin promo, so I don't assume it represents thralls.

Traditions costs a lot in civic costs. That is unfortunate, since it can't be changed. Can it be reduced a bit? It is costing me 7 GPT, with Military State costing me 8 GPT. I'm sure the maintenance negates that cost, but none of the other effects I'm even using (not a single military unit stationed in my cities, resources provide way more happiness than the small cities could ever need).

 

[Sephi]

So that city is still missing a population point. Growth, anarchy, and specialists all can't recover it. The yields aren't big for that tile on the world map anymore, and when I built a farm on the tile, it didn't change the base yields of the city. Weird bug.

working tile issue fixed

Some more strangeness:

Popped an adventurer, but they cannot be upgraded to Hill Giants. They can be upgraded to Wild Trolls and Wielder of Arms.

fixed

Pact of the Nilhorn hill giants aren't the same as the Jotnar's, so they cannot be upgraded. Feels strange and underpowered.

fixed

I haven't bothered going down the arcane line, since adepts are blocked. Are their mages simply upgraded from citizens?

yes

Should Giantkin grant extra work rate? I would think a bunch of giants could get as much or more done than some puny humans. The Jotnar Worker has the giantkin promo, so I don't assume it represents thralls.

sounds good

Traditions costs a lot in civic costs. That is unfortunate, since it can't be changed. Can it be reduced a bit? It is costing me 7 GPT, with Military State costing me 8 GPT. I'm sure the maintenance negates that cost, but none of the other effects I'm even using (not a single military unit stationed in my cities, resources provide way more happiness than the small cities could ever need).

will see. But a possible way to boost the Jotnar in case they need it.

 

[iffi]

Patch 8.04:

All fortified Giantkin in cities autoactivate when non-barbarian enemies are within sight.

It seems that new Citizen are born in quick succession if I lose a few Giantkin units. Is there an 'enforced' Giantkin unit limit? Citizen spawning % increases the less you have, even in late game? It is nice of course, but also makes unpromoted units fodder-material.

Some thoughts on balance:
The XP fix in 8.10 is a welcome addition (haven't tried yet). In 8.04, milking barbarians and animals for xp/captured units is vital for survival (if you can find enough), and even then one has to pick the spots when one dares to attack. It feels more like playing goblins, not giants. I don't mind the challenge, but it is a bit weird. But once you get 3 or 4 combat promos, the scales are tipped the other way. So yes, a difficult thing to balance.
Going/hoping for blight is a good strategy with less peaceful-minded players, those Orc Conscripts are almost the only way to conquer cities without too much risk of losing promoted giants.

 

[Matsume]

Hi Im a veteran jotnar player from FF and Rife and first off all would like to thank the wildmana for adding the jotnar ( i made a request some weeks ago...)
Im been trying to finish a game with jotnar to provide a complete feedback but its currently hard ( getting some ctds or infinite wait time between turn ocasionally, and i disabled autosave to get some speed bost...). But i already found some issues...

1- Giants without the ability do pass trough mountains??? ( That was half the fun...)

2- Their earlier hero and defender of their lands (Egrass) dont defend their precious stacks full of citzens units. The hero have the "decreased chance do defend the stack" and in this case its awfull. i mean, i got attacked by orthus in one of the games "no problem, i have Egrass" i thought, but then the citzens started to defend the stack and DIE!!! I've lost some of the precious citzens that took so many time to be born...
*please take away the "decreased chance to defend stack" from egrass.

3- There isn't a earlier unit of jotnar that provides military happines...the GIant citzens with 2/4 dont provide happines...and a warrior with 3 provides??? The trhalls are almost uselles, thei cost maitenance, dont provide military happines and simple ****. NOt even egrass provides military happines...
*Please take away the trhalls first strikes, decrease their general usefulnes( if have) and give them something like str 1 but 100/75% city defense bonus and being free of maitenance costs. Also take away from some earlier unit the "dosent provide military happines"

4- Where are the age promotions?They need it! 3/4 hill giants and Egrass (if you are lucky enough to complete the pact of nillhorn...) cant easily defend their empire early on against some agressive rush invasion ( dovielo, clan, grigori sometimes...). They are just to few/ the money is just to few. So they need that boost from age to keep them from being overhelmed to stacks of doom.
*Please add the age promotions

5- They are now agnostic! ok, i agree ... but they need some pagan temple UB! How about one that gives them money 1/2 ( very necessary) and just a little culture +1 and with no bonus %? (makes sense to me, their cities are smalls, so makes sense their culture dont have to be that big in the beginning...)

Well thats what I can remember for now, and managed to play till now. Will try to finish a game to see all the units.

Just providing feedback to help improve the modmod , and my favorite civ along with the Lanun ( Go get them Guybrush!). Again thanks for adding them, but they now need a "polishment"...

Thanks anyway.

 

[graywarden]

Testing as the Jotnar, (WM 8.11) I just finished the Wonder "Joining", the wonder screen displays the Hidden Palace, and the net affect was similar to bringing the Mercurians with Mecurian Gate. I wasnt expecting this... haha..... i just thought I was building more culture which was the major advantage in the current description.

I see there is no pedia entry, so if someone will enlighten me, on the intent of the "joining", i will make a civlopedia entry, and a new strategy tag to help the unsuspecting... haha

 

[tatva]

Well finally playing a game with Jotnar in 8.11. (I dont like to speak of what I dont know). Im entering the middle game, with 7 cities founded, each with 1 hill giant defending, and many citizens around improving the ground.

What I see is this:

1) Thrall militia is totally useless. citizens have 4 def strenght, so they are better, and militia only makes you loose gold. Of course until you have enough citizens, you can only make militia, so use them for the first turns and then use them to accelerate the production in cities (only 2 hammers thought).

2) I dont understand what use to upgrade to workers, being the citizens able to work themselves.

3) Wild trolls are somewhat useless, and in some case they revolted against me and made me loose several turns of setler building.

4) Until hill giants or troll hunters you have no way to properlly provide city hapiness other than the somewhat useless trolls. And then you have to put your strong hill giants to guard your cities, instead of going hunt or ride something.

5) Appart from those points, the jotnar seem to develop well, the 1 radius cities are not a problem (but I started on plains and not on tundra in a Erebus map and with good food resources available near other resources like elephants, silk and incense).

6) Im playing progresive dificulty and Im already at deity. The wild and barbs are strenght 5, 6 and 7. It would be very difficult If I had not put my early militia to whatch the surroundings so they dont settle near, and the mountain chains and near sea cover half my limits, so it was an easy start. But I cant think what would it be if I had started in middle of the continent with no mountain chains as limits.

Nothing more for now, I will post again once I get ahead in the game.

 

[iffi]

Notes from 8.11:

Thrall Cultists provide military happiness; intended or not. Also, the Griffon seem to be the only animal able to do that.

This time I chose the Aggressive leader, and that Combat I it gives is a big boost.

Also for the 1st time, I got some Wild Trolls. They are actually a nice implementation, provide extra happiness to allow early city growth, and are able to dispatch some barbarians for xp. Then upgraded to Troll Hunters. None of the 3 turned feral, got lucky I guess.

With the free Combat I and the xp provided by the fix in 8.11, I had Cyclops with 3 free promotions and highly promoted Troll Hunters that could handle fortified Archers and Iron Axemen quite well. All the 3 AI got a weak start in this game, so I probably should have faced Iron Champions and Longbowmen at this point. So I think next game I will need those Skald and Maelstorm to take down cities. No Orc Conscripts again, the AC never goes to 30 when you want it to..

The citizen pop-up rate is quite impressive. I never run out of them. I even upgraded one to a Worker!

Hill Giants are the weakest unit I think. By the time I get them there are not that many 'free' barbarians for them to eat. They can not take on barb cities. No defensive bonuses, slow, no metal weapons. I just ignore them and upgrade straight to Wielder-of-Arms, especially now since they get the free promotions from late-popped Citizens.

Thrall Militia are weak, but rightly so. And they are useful in the beginning. Even if they can not win any fights, they are plentiful and so can hold that settlement until Egrass or a Wild Troll can be dispatched there to help.

Jotnar is a well planned civ. They may seem weak, but only because all the other civs are too strong and easy to play with.

 

[BasilAbdef]

I am not convinced that they are a viable civ against an aggressive human player, especially one using a civ with the raiders trait (Tasunke in particular). The Jotnar need a large number of small cities, but early on, it is simply impossible to defend all of them. Even if the Jotnar somehow manages to survive such a rush, the enemy can easily just pillage all those precious cottages away; Eagress is a pretty lousy attacker, even when highly promoted. Thrall militia are little more than free exp, citizens do not receive any combat promotions (and are likewise also useless in attacking), and true military units are either too far away (hill giants) or are too costly to produce in any significant number (the trolls).

All this does not even take into account the fact that most giant units gain exp at a significantly reduced rate (-30%, right?). That alone is enough to cripple them. The Jotnar might be fun with which to abuse the AI, but I don't see them having much use beyond that.

 

[Hullu]

Tried the Jotnar yesterday, ran into this:

All this does not even take into account the fact that most giant units gain exp at a significantly reduced rate (-30%, right?). That alone is enough to cripple them.

It really annoyed me that unlike all the other civs, Jotnar never seemed to get (didn't play too much, I might be wrong) the free 1 exp per fight from 'easy 99.9% fights'. It really slowed down the experience growth of the trolls I had, way more than 30% since from most fights I got zero exp instead of 1, which is -infinite% not -30%.

Hopefully my analysis (from a very short game) isn't too far off.

 

[BasilAbdef]

I just don't see how they're in any way viable in a multiplayer game. The AI is stupid/passive, so of course even a terribly gimped civilization is playable in single player.

 

[tesb]

The AI is stupid/passive

i don't have that impression for aggressive leaders like the sheaim for example. more peaceful civilization like the elohim are a bit too cautious once they are in a war imho.

I can't comment on the jotnar, since i have not played them, but gaining no experience from combats with certain victory seems a bit much.

 

[BasilAbdef]

Perhaps I should be a bit more specific. The AI, even when on the warpath does not battle very intelligently. It doesn't utilize hit and run tactics. It doesn't produce specially promoted units tailored to fit a specific task. It is not very effective at offensive spellcasting. It won't use teams of commando upgraded cavalry to run in, pillage something, and run out again in a single turn to systematically destroy everything in sight. It doesn't know the first thing about assassins or guarding against them. In short, the AI wields its power like a blunt instrument, rushing headlong into the enemy defense and often breaking as a result.

What this means for the Jotnar is that in single player, one can survive the early game by just concentrating the few defenders that one has at a single point, and the AI will just suicide against them. After this happens a few times, those few units will be promoted enough (even though they suffer from that ridiculous -30% xp gain rate) that they can beat down equivalent tech units at will, and finishing game becomes a mere formality at that point.

 

[graywarden]

Testing as the Jotnar WM8.11

Just created the Arrow Tower Wonder, no archers (or other type of ranged unit) available

Not sure if the Ranged Units are suppose to be unavailable to the Jotnar or not?

If so, then the Arrow Tower Wonder needs to be disabled for them.

 

[graywarden]

Testing as the Jotnar WM8.11

Just created the Arrow Tower Wonder, no archers (or other type of ranged unit) available

Not sure if the Ranged Units are suppose to be unavailable to the Jotnar or not?

If so, then the Arrow Tower Wonder needs to be disabled for them.

The Fletcher Building becomes available with the Bowyers Tech.
I just built a Fletcher, and no upgrade unit became available here either.

Sephi,

will you confirm that the ranged missle buildings, units and wonders are not suppose to be available to the Jotnar. and if so, do you want me to disable these links?

 

[Sephi]

yeah, good idea to disable them in CivilizationInfos.xml

 

[graywarden]

yeah, good idea to disable them in CivilizationInfos.xml

ok very good, i will get to work on that.

i will make a list of what i disable so that you can double check me.

i will be looking at ranged units/upgrades/buildings/specific wonders

what about the siege engine systems???

 

[Sephi]

IIRC siege weapons are already disabled.

 

[graywarden]

yeah, good idea to disable them in CivilizationInfos.xml

Ok, may need your help here. The CivilizationInfos file under Jotnar/Normal Modules list the units availabe, and i can see where they are disabled here. The real problem is with the buildings. So I have looked in the BuildingInfos/BuildingClass info file(s) and there is not much help there either. I have also looked in the TechInfos file.

I am not finding a list of buildings to work with here. Where else should I look?

 

[Sephi]

Buildings are disabled in the same file as units, it's the section above. For example city of the thousand slums is disabled for Jotnar.

			<Buildings>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_BUILDING1</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_JOT_HOUSE_OF_THE_ANCESTORS</BuildingType>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_PALACE</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_JOT_PALACE</BuildingType>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_BUILDING2</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING</BuildingType>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CITY_OF_A_THOUSAND_SLUMS</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>NONE</BuildingType>
				</Building>
			</Buildings>

 

[graywarden]

Buildings are disabled in the same file as units, it's the section above. For example city of the thousand slums is disabled for Jotnar.

			<Buildings>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_BUILDING1</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_JOT_HOUSE_OF_THE_ANCESTORS</BuildingType>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_PALACE</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_JOT_PALACE</BuildingType>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CIV_BUILDING2</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING</BuildingType>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_CITY_OF_A_THOUSAND_SLUMS</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>NONE</BuildingType>
				</Building>
			</Buildings>

So I am seeing this equation backwards then. I add to the list what I want disabled from the generic pool, rather then a master list being duplicated in each civilization file.

and so i assume the same goes with technologies as well then.