The jump to Immortal, some questions about best leaders

[madscientist]

Well, after many years I have finally made the jump to Immortal since I can win routinely at emperor now and have remastered the faster paced games at Normal and Epic speeds.

All I can say is Immortal is a totally different can of worms here, and I got slammed several times. I had one game where I played pretty deep into the game as Hannibal only to lose a SPace Race. I also got creamed with Hyuna a few times! These were all random leaders, I just happened to get a few great trait ones, or so I thought.

Which brings me to my latest game (at work, soory no save) in which the randomizer gave me

Boudica! Great, a war-monger with no economic traits. However, I have been doing great with her! I focused on the typical early economic traits, cottaged for comemrce, GP farmed, built a large military. I was cramped a bit and used Boudica's talents rolleyes to steal an early city with gold mine from Kublai for extra commerce. Had no iron (yet) but used Jumbos well. Killed Kublai, got Liberalism, and geering up towards attacking a weak Julius Caesar as the fast teching Darius is ripping him apart. With teh land I eventually plan to out produce Darius later for more land and see where it goes.

Long story short, clearly my best Immortal game yet (except for shadowing Lord P's ALC game, still waiting there) with an unexpected leader.

So my question is which leaders traits or leaders are best for Immortal, so far my thinking is a little different?

Some thoughts

1) Agressive. Much more valuable at higher levels with a fast Baracks for early war to expand rather than rely on settlers. Barbs are also a serious problem for me at this level and Combat I warriors with an early promotion seam a bigger deal than ever before (at since my early days of warrior rushing AIs at Nobel!).

2) Charismatic. Happiness rules here, especially since Monarchy takes so damned long. I tend to try and hit alphabet/currency long before monarchy.

3) Financial. Still OK but seams relying on this trait still cannot get you a tech lead like in other levels, you are always playing from behind early on. And no other advantages makes this a little soso.

4) IND. one of my favorite traits but as I have heard for years not all that useful at higher levels. Yeah I gotta agree here. IS is possible to survive Immortal and get any wonders??? Perhaps occasionally, but with the need for land and early defense I cannot comprehend getting wonders unless playing a 2 city wonderspam like OBSOLETE.

5) Creative. Have not tried yet, but I think this is a powerful trait here, more so than lower levels. The hammers wasted on monuments are a waste! Fast Libraries rock here. Sure it wains, but by then you should have a large empire to work with.

6) Protective: Gotta say with these Barb issues early on some free promoted archers and cheap wall look promising. Also I am thinking the draft is much more important at Immortal, so drafted protective rifles are even more important.

7) Phil: have not tried it, but every edge for liberalism makes a big difference.

8) IMP: again have not tried yet, but I think fast settlers are one of the most improtant aspects of the early Immortal game to choke off land from the AI (unless of course you are agressive and can just take land).

9) EXP. fast workers, graneries and harbors seams pretty damned poerful to me at this level. Looking far down stream I also think those extra health points saves some needed hammers from an aqueduct, or at least delayed.

10) Spiritual. I see it the same as before, no anarchy is always a plus in my book!

11) ORG. Still gotta be important, but not early on unless you need lighthouses. Still cheap courthouses are a big plus here.

One final question. Does anyone still try to found early religions at this level??? Getting tehre first is not an issue, but lacking early defense or claiming land slowly seams like a terrible risk. Also the time getting a Prophet (Hammers wasted on a wonder or shrine) seams a big deal to me.

 

[Silu]

Very, very, very rarely I see anyone going for an early religion on Immortal+. I never do it myself. I just can't justify the sacrifice needed in delaying worker techs (and by extension, expansion). Most viable situation is with an IMP leader and Settler first (hi, Charlie!); though I've never been a fan of that strategy either.

FIN has always been my favourite helper-trait. When I started Immortal I went through an "educational" tour of all the FIN leaders using different victory conditions. Currently doing the same with Deity, success rate not quite as good .

I think the traits that scale most up on higher levels are ORG and SPI, for obvious reasons. Higher mainteinance means more help from ORG, and the emphasized need of good diplo makes SPI a serious boon. CRE also scales up, but not quite as much. These stand out from the rest for me. AGG is nice to get Formation troops with Theo+rax for those huge stacks of Knights or Cavalry, but not that essential.

About Boudica, strangely enough my highest scoring Immortal game is with her as well... 15 cities, 2 shrines, 'Mids&SH&GW, 200 BPT and a stack of level 6 Maces at 1AD got a tad lucky there. That's probably my #1 problem with warlike traits; they depend quite much on the map, Civ placement and the general situation.

 

[bestsss]

early religion is possible w/ Mr. Hyuna and it's great risk.
spiritual is great for diplomacy.

Lady Liz of England is a very strong choice to try if you need philosophical.
Creative is one of the best traits since allows way better cities placement and way easier block, you can avoid mysticism line altogether till you need it (after alphabet). Zara/Pericles are very strong choices. (Even though I usually still avoid mysticism and use chopped libraries for culture).

All, to get the feeling of the difficulty, you may even go darius on marathon, you can have more expectations on the AI and keep quasi-domination position for the most part.

 

[Dirk1302]

I think you'll find that all the traits are valuable on immortal+. If i had to mention 2 traits in the end (especially on deity) i'd say creative, the strength of which is very map dependent and spiritual which makes you flexible and adaptable. You can switch religions freely having new friends and enemies every 5 turns. Switching between caste/slavery is often also strong of course.

I went religion in DMOC's ultra game but only because he gave away some info at the start of the game that we wouldnt have one otherwise on our conti, its a bad idea most of the time as it's usually too dangerous to run your religion.

 

[norxposr]

I have nothing helpful to add except that I'm going to follow this tread very closely.

I have the same issues with Immortal. Emperor isn't really a challenge anymore (my last three games were +150K scores, with random everything), but I'm not so good at immortal (currently at 3 out of 9 attempts). I tend to do really well up to around 1000 AD, and it all falls apart after that.

I'm thinking about selecting my leader instead of using random, but didn't know which to go with. Everything seems beneficial at immortal.

 

[Sian]

currently i'm only able to win on Emperor if i'm dealt a good leader and/or at least a decent map ... so my option should maybe be taken with a pinch of salt ... but i say that Perciles rules supreme at peaceful buildup aiming at a whatever/Cannon war ... UU is a decent unit which defends quite well against the natural counter and the UB is really good for culture wars (just running a game where i won Corn from Kubai Khan with a city i settled a good 50 turns after him, in his inner circle and my second) ... he's certainly the one i'm going to try on immortal when i feel safe on Emperor (allready know how to play the tech game, but lacks behind on warmanagement)

 

[Dirk1302]

@norxposr, try to focus on building Oxford around 1000 AD, that'll keep your techrate competitive. Philosophical leader is great for this, half priced unis.

 

[norxposr]

@dirk

Thanks. Philosophical will be the next one I try then. I've let the computer pick for me for the first 9, and I didn't get one with that trait.

 

[Silu]

In a mostly cottage-driven economy Oxford isn't THAT urgent, but PHI would favor specialists anyway. Oxford is VERY helpful to aim for ASAP with some settled scientists.

 

[Dirk1302]

Don't understand you there Silu. i usually don't settle specs, indeed oxford is even better in that case.In a good buro capital you typicall raise your science by ~150 bpt with one building. As you also have just built/whipped 6 unis your research effectively doubles in ~10-15 turns.

 

[Loki Strikes]

Leaders really don't matter too much in the long run, I have very, very rarely had a game where I lose and go oh shoot I would of won if I had a different leader...

However if you must know most useful traits (not in any particular order, however big 3 are organized, spiritual, creative)

Organized - SOOOO useful, lets one grab more cities early (or same number with less penalty) putting one in a stronger position, fast courthouses are nice to whip

Spiritual - Cycling CS/Slavery(all game), Bureaucracy/Nationhood/Free Speech(later game), diplo shenanigans, Rep/US/PS, philo/theocracy/or, sooooo good with just a little bit of micro

Creative - The quick border pops aren't too big of a deal on immortal (deity is another story), however the saved hammers come at just the right time, and fast libraries are the best fast building there is(or granary... close)

Financial - meh little faster research, the more I play, the less this really shines IMO

Philosophical - Very useful, when philo I leave science 0% for 9 turns after my library(time for a gs) and then academy at put on science leading to ridiculous tech. Also helps with super fast lib. Also allows you to push more GP out of great cities more cost effectively with some micro. Quick unis = quick oxford, nuff said

Charismatic has its uses early game, but its nothing that really makes me super impressed
Agressive/protective I really don't care too much for as I don't need any help in war but I mean drafting drillI CGI rifles is nice...

Industrious - Okay you can wonderspam immortal, that is how I got my first immortal win, and it wasn't even with an industrious leader(ironically it was boudica...), however doing so make sure, Fast factories are nice if the game lasts that long, and if you've been wonderspamming, it probably will
a. have stone/marble
b. able to block/take land for 6 cities
Usually not optimal but can be very, very effective so never dismiss this as an option... keeping that in mind its a lot of fun

Agressive/prot - erm kinda the worst traits, both have synergy with the draft though. Agressive gives cheap barracks which give 2 happies with nat and lets you drop C1 rifles/muskets/oromos/w/e, Protective lets you draft CGI,DI troops which I think is a lot more useful as I tend to go drill line on rifles

Expansive - Fast workers, fast granaries... makes for a strong early game, the extra health helps late game, all around solid trait

Imperialistic - do not underestimate, when imperialistic i tend to whip more settlers for hammer bonus, faster expansion can let you have a better position later game if you know what you are doing.


Another point: Axe rushes/HA rushes/Sword and Cat/chariot rushes STILL WORK. For my first two months of immortal I would not even consider any of the above because I thought they were elementary tactics that did not hold up at higher difficulties. Do not be afraid to use them if boxed in/need to cripple a neighbor NOW, however they are less universally applicable at immortal then lower difficulties (at emperor- you can pretty much do that on every map)

 

[Silu]

^ Dirk

I often find that trying to go for Oxford ASAP sacrifices too much cottagework to be totally worth it. Depends on the land, if all your cottage cities have resource food then it's better, but if many are slow-growing then the whipping of cottage workers to get Oxford ~100-200 years faster might not be worth it in the long run. Sometimes the capital isn't even the best sci producing city even with Byro, so there might not be a clear #1 sci city to maximize Oxford benefit.

Still the main issue I have with Oxford in a full CE is that you probably want to switch to FS quite early, losing the insane synergy of Byro&Oxford. In a SE you run Byro for a very long time.

I'll probably get crucified for saying this, but IMO Oxford is overrated in many situations.

EDIT: I'm kinda biased also in that I use Slavery much less than most people here, so if I'm in Caste then Uni-whippage is less viable. If I have many very good sci cities then a GS farm for mass Academies might offset the later Oxford somewhat.

 

[Loki Strikes]

Haven't done the math, but I will usually whip my cottage cities for oxford/chop any trees I have spared thus far in order to get oxford up, the unis make up for some of the lost cottaged turns(not all, true), but oxford itself is just HUGE, Dirk not exaggerating by saying science doubles within 10-15 turns.

That being said there are games where I will not build oxford, but those are the games that I expect to end around 1500 A.D. due to Cannon/Rifle and vassal mechanics abuse.

 

[Dirk1302]

I always aim at cities having +6 food or enough production to get these unis up without too much trouble, this is also important for other infra. If a city has slow growth and is low on production it makes sense imo to farm some more tiles early to get at this +6 food. Later on when infra has been whipped you can cottage over the farms under emancipation. Rusten already expressed doubts about cottaging everything years ago, sterile cities that can only work cottages and can effectively do nothing else are not that powerful.

Even under FS the oxford advantage remains significant but you typically go FS at the time you go emancipation, some time to go, but less with oxford help. Just as with gp the early boost in research is important, later on oxford loses significance as the capital isn't responsible for the majority of research anymore. Some things are overrated but Oxford's not included, definitely the best national wonder in my book.

There are of course situation where delaying the wonder makes sense, most often when i'm boxed in and need more land urgently. In this case it makes sense to just crawl to steel for instance and go for a steamroll. I typically build Oxford to leverage this advantage into a cav/airship attack or getting communism first + Kremlin.

 

[Lansky]

The ever so bland response of, every trait starts to shine at higher levels depending on the situation. Obviously a strong UU/UB will tend to help out, but my highest score ever on Immortal+ came with Saladin on a Pangaea. Go figure.

Two points on traits. I still find financial to be incredibly strong and my time spend behind the curve seems much shorter. Additionally Industrious loses some luster due to the world wonders going faster, however I find the turns shaved off of national wonders, especially without the necessary resource to be amazing. Getting NE or Oxford up those extra few turns faster can actually make a difference.

Only time I found a religion is if the leader/start dictates a weird opening - Charlie on a plains hill with a forested hill to work and go settler first for example. Even then I'll often ignore the religion and just get a worker tech out.

 

[tycoonist]

from what i have seen of your games, your attacking play may need some reworking. you tend to attack in the middle ages. do not attack in the middle ages. on immortal they build too many longbows for attacking in the mid game to be viable. concentrate on your economy at this time. the main attacking windows are:
1. axes (nearly always works - chariots are possible but really very risky)
(2. swords - if you beeline IW or are Rome )
3. elephants + catas. (very solid against most AIs who haven't gotten to longbows yet. elephants have no real counter until pikemen - they can still hold there own against longbowmen, although your losses will be greater)
4. gunpowder units - rifles, cannons specifically. cavalry are still viable if you can reach them quick enough. currasiers are ok but not as solid as rifles or cannons.
5. any point from here onwards it is possible to war and win even if you have the same era troops.

concentrate on the early game. most of my games are won by liberalism.

as for traits, in a rough order of value
1. protective - rubbish as ever. never found a use for it (actually i suppose the stone +wall whip can be quite useful, but it is quite situational.)
2. aggressive - next to useless. helps with axerushing, but thats about it. if you have trouble with barbs, fogbusting is actually easier than many people think.
3. industrious - you probably won't build more than one or two wonders in the early ages. sometimes pyramids, sometimes GLh, sometimes GL. its nice to have but i would rather have a different trait.
4. imperialistic - getting early settlers out can be useful to block the AI, and the GG boost can be useful, but i never find myself missing this trait.
5. expansive - extra health is definitely more valuable on immortal, but often i find myself not needing it until the late game, by which time the game is won or lost already. fast workers = very good, but the boost isn't absolutely massive
6. philosophical - i never find myself needing enough scientists to value this very highly. 1 GS for academy, 1 GS for philosophy, 1 GS for education. that makes 3. i have seen people make better use of this on deity, but on immortal, it isn't so necessary.
7. creative - useful but not essential by any means. culture battles are much harder on immortal, and fast border pops allow for better city placement.
8. spiritual - quality trait through and through. allows for better diplo, better use of slavery + caste system, etc. very variable and adaptable
9. organized - reduced upkeep is nice, but the real godsend here is quick courthouses.
10. charismatic - one of my favourites. i always win more wars when charismatic, and the extra happiness at the start is brilliant.
11. i'm not gonna try and be original, this is the best trait at immortal. i can guarantee that i will win 99% of games if i start with financial.

 

[Dirk1302]

The ever so bland response of, every trait starts to shine at higher levels depending on the situation.

It's true though isn't it? Some traits are admittedly more situational than others. Then again if that situation develops they tend to be stronger traits than the others.

 

[shyuhe]

You can still war in any era on immortal - you just have to be more judicious about when to do it. Not forcing wars is the key. You can also still out-expand the AI on immortal, although you'll probably wreck your economy trying to do it. Just make sure you can tech alphabet, currency, or col before your economy runs out of gas.

 

[Silu]

I always aim at cities having +6 food or enough production to get these unis up without too much trouble, this is also important for other infra. If a city has slow growth and is low on production it makes sense imo to farm some more tiles early to get at this +6 food. Later on when infra has been whipped you can cottage over the farms under emancipation. Rusten already expressed doubts about cottaging everything years ago, sterile cities that can only work cottages and can effectively do nothing else are not that powerful.

Even under FS the oxford advantage remains significant but you typically go FS at the time you go emancipation, some time to go, but less with oxford help. Just as with gp the early boost in research is important, later on oxford loses significance as the capital isn't responsible for the majority of research anymore. Some things are overrated but Oxford's not included, definitely the best national wonder in my book.

There are of course situation where delaying the wonder makes sense, most often when i'm boxed in and need more land urgently. In this case it makes sense to just crawl to steel for instance and go for a steamroll. I typically build Oxford to leverage this advantage into a cav/airship attack or getting communism first + Kremlin.

Okay, I admit I'm guilty of the crimes mentioned. I usually focus on maximizing science earlier, before Emancipation, and certainly don't farm 4 grass tiles in a resourceless mass-grassriverside city. Seems there's more problems in my general cottage playing strategy than my Oxford timing. If I'd focus on more non-Academy infra in the best cottage cities, that'd make them better in the long run while making Oxford better in comparison. Still, if you end up aiming for a timing window of ~Inf/Cannon, the sterile cities -option might be better. Or maybe I'll just bow before the wisdom of the legends and change my ways

I agree that Oxford is the best Nat Wonder, no question, but even the best of things can be overrated.

 

[Artichoker]

You can still war in any era on immortal - you just have to be more judicious about when to do it. Not forcing wars is the key. You can also still out-expand the AI on immortal, although you'll probably wreck your economy trying to do it. Just make sure you can tech alphabet, currency, or col before your economy runs out of gas.

Very true...there's nothing wrong with fighting a war in the medieval era, as long as you have the right forces to get the job done.