The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[bestsss]

Since I won't be too hated for the reckless actions:

As I said the next turn Monty/Ragnar declared a war. I think it was a bug in the game though to declare so soon. B/c Ragnar didn't intend to attack, only a single chariot attacked.

Spoiler :

The stack that was at the border actually started to move to Bombay...or not as proved later. That puzzled me and I kept some forces in Bombay too.
Anyways: next turn capture the barb city and this is the the monarchy progress:

Spoiler :

No attacks, just Ragnar moved his mini-stack.

Made deal copper->8gpt to Churchill, notice AP was built, actually a lot of wonder were built during the turnset.

Spoiler :

Healed and moved to take the other barb city. Ragnar also decided to attack it...

Spoiler :

That was real nice from Ragnar. I had similar feelings, what would be happening to me for playing that so prematurely...

Spoiler :

However, aside being extra rude Ragnar had no match for his stupidity, attacked the barb city and his slivering horse archer was killed by the axe, also he decided to move his troops to the captured hill city, I guess that was the initial plan and only if he sees good odds to attack would have abandoned them.
However Monty was not wasting time at all. You will see his stack at the end...

Spoiler :

Taking the city allowed to unlocked the HE. I decided to keep the city... perhaps it was a blunder, though.

The 103 was quite dramatic... You see why, this was the saving grace of the turnset:

Spoiler :

I made a horrid blunder and didn't sign open border due to war.

The AIs always sign open borders if sharing a war... Terrible, terrible mistake

Monty/Ragnar were willing to talk and this is a city they got to leave us alone, unfortunately I made some blunders which have no excuse...

Spoiler :

Also had some barbarians to deal w/ but nothing to serious. Now we got so much military leftover. There is a settler of Toku going for the elephants, doh... There is a chance he won't make it though due to border pop but I am not sure at all.

The present situation:

Spoiler :

This is what scared me and didn't open the borders...

Relations:

Tech:

Observations:
Ragnar builds wonders like Louis... that's bloody not possible unless he is going culture, well that would be funny. Tao is gone. And we can't bulb anything at all before edu. We have quite a bit of cities and chance to capture 2 more (likely). Although, we got some matured (a bit) cottages from the barb city, we are close to utterly crashed eco wise. At least Ragnar didn't pillage the gold.
Also we can sell Mediation for 40gold to Ragnar. Copper is open to trade for corn but I'd wait for some gold as well.

Edit (Forgot): Also music is gone to Ragnar/Monty (wow! another reason I thought Ragnar is after culture), this is what I thought the hill city can pop borders, the AIs always build culture 1st if the border has not popped.

 

[Duckweed]

Very good, Bestsss!

We're almost free from the pressure of Monty/Ragnar team from now on, however, the menace from Toku/Joao is still there. One of the task for the next set is to send a setter into Toku's border to draw him out of annoyed state. I think it's good to whip one from the copper city as soon as possible.

Roster:

Bestsss -- just played
Shyuhe -- UP
Dirk1302 -- On deck
The Rook
Duckweed
Obsolete

 

[Dirk1302]

The OB problem with Willem_team is resolved easily enough by switching out of hindu which is a good idea now Monty is occupied elsewhere. We'll risk a war with Toku_team if we don't switch out. This won't solve our problems though as Monty_team won't ob atm blocking trade with Willem_team. Well maybe in a few years.

Recovery will take time here and as expected the capital is working plain forests due to food surplus, some mature cottages there would have made our future a bit easier. Meanwhile we need a lot of extra workers to develop the land asap. Our Cottage city is working 2 unimproved fp's. I know it's going to whip a lib next turn but it'll grow back on these same unimproved tiles even with 2 scientists assigned, we really should try our utmost to avoid that sort of thing. Of course we'll need libraries everywhere asap to run those scientists.

Col is a very good tech here but it doesn't do that much for us immediately. courthouses help but they're expensive. We can switch between caste and slavery , the extra specs help a bit with research but bulbing doesn't do that much ftm as we're a long way from cs let alone edu. Maybe we should try to take out the southern barb cities and run to alpha with the money gained. With the help of research production it won't be that far to currency or col. Since we're going to be slow anyway it's best i think to gather as much cities as we can as we won't get them in a war soon.

Ragnar taking music is very normal, i found that out sometime ago when i was very surprised that he almost beat me. But i paid attention since, he seems to go that route very often, in all my games featuring him actually.

 

[obsolete]

I did a look over the current save, and again I see some things I really don’t like. I don’t like how again we are working some very poor un-improved tiles in the capital, while leaving a 4F1C tile idle. We spent effort improving that, so use it damnit! If the food has too much surplus then whip the damn library. In fact, we need at least one more settler and a few more fast workers, so use the improved tiles, that’s what they are for.

Also some other spots have me at level ‘annoyed’. Bombay for example is running 2 scientists, yet it is no where near happy or health cap, and someone went through an effort to cottage a river-side tile, and we are not even working it. Hmmmmm………

Right now it looks like we are going to lose an awesome elephant-seafood tile in the north to Toku. Too late now to do anything about it, however, we MAY be able to save the horses tile if we get another settler our fast. Again, please work all IMPROVED tiles, that’s what they are for.

I know city maintenance is damn expensive, but if we keep losing these great sites, things are going to get even more expensive down the road. Keep in mind, we don’t actually have to settle the northern spot, we just have to have a settler there on stand-by for settling emergencies.

We are going to lose the other 2 barb cities in our west if we don’t hurry up with swords there quick. They are on flatland so taking them should not be too difficult. If we don’t hurry we’ll lose them too, since Jap has already taken 2 other barb cities there with his elephants. We need to hurry fast. Whip a few more swords and beeline for them pronto.

We are way behind on workers too, but that’s ok because our priorities are to grab the last few cities we can now before it’s too late. We are greatly out-matched empire size and this is what will be the death of us.

As for our secondary tasks, rotate all archers from Bloody Hill and send them to the West, since that’s where the next attack will be from (bring the spear especially). Also, stop making any more archers, we are paying enough unit maintenance as it is.

Also, move units from other cities down south to find out where the hell our marble is. Even if we have no marble, we definitely want to get our beaver city up soon to improve our economy, etc. I don’t care if it’s a city on a piece of ice, we need that resource.

And….. don’t forget to switch out of this god-forsaken religion. And, don’t forget to trade our rice to Rag’s corn. If Churchill complains, you go ahead and tell him where he can go.

BTW, I really don’t like the spot you settled our GIFT city for the AI. I thought we were going to put it on the useless desert city. Instead you put it on an ocean tile with 4 resources in its cross (possibly more). That city will turn into a monster city for him, we did them a favour instead of duping them for the idiots they are. Did I miss something here?

 

[bestsss]

The capital has not worked the unimproved tiles, yet. I swapped this turn to finish the library immediately and run scientists the next turn instead of the unimproved tiles.

Built the cottage in bombay since could not do anything else due to ragnar moving units (incl horse archers) around. switched to scientists during the previous turn to have an academy as soon as possible.
same issue w/ copper city. didn't whip worker b/c monty had troops and the barbs showed too. i could not work the tiles at will.

about switching the religion, can wait one turn i guess if monty gets any money, ask for. can ask fishing too while he is pleased.

 

[Dirk1302]

@obsolete,
Agree with most of what you say here, mentioned some points my self already,

Unimproved tiles - agree, don't think they've been there long as we got mon 6 turns ago but these libraries should be whipped asap.

Bombay scientists - we have to run these scientists somewhere for the academy, we're late as it is anyway. Not that the academy is that strong this time, won't mention again why it isn't . Rest of the tiles aren't that enticing atm anyway

Phant tile would have been nice but the rest is garbage. We won't have construction for a zillion years so no tears there.

Agree with the need to settle/take as much good cities as possible (meaning we don't strike), maintenance is out of control already and research'll have to come from scientists, maybe research production

So agree with going for the barb cities as well.

Far more workers are needed indeed, they can be whipped from food surplus, they're cheaper now than swords as food gets converted to H while building them.

Should stop building archers, we have too much now but it's hard to judge during war, seeing monty stack we would have needed them (and more). We could move some archers to the west since a sneak attack there is possible. Just in case anyone suggests it, i'm not in favor of disbanding promoted archers, we may need them or the upgraded version in the future. Warriors can be disbanded if we've got them, unpromoted archers maybe, not sure.

Marble would be nice for HE indeed. We can build this wonder without though, it's not that expensive. NE is also useful but being philo it's not that urgent.

Corn is important, we need the ob with Willem_team as well though. I don't think trading a resource will anger Churchill too much, be sure to have ob with Willem_team in place before we do this trade. We certainly should switch out of hindu soon. Can wait one turn but not much longer really i feel.

I don't have a problem with the gift city. Monty would surely have settled there himself probably 2w of it which is a better spot for him. I think it's perfect actually, desert will remain unoccupied now and it'll take longer this way to become a landtarget. Not that not being one helped us much .

Edit: We'll may need to research fishing/sailing first to get Tr's up. I assume Monty will Ob in a few turns.

 

[bestsss]

We will get some gold from the barb cities, so academy(s) will help the deficit research. I didn't put anything into CoL (only the last turn 2 scientists w/ lib in bombay) and no overflow either.

I think we will need academy in the copper city as well. I dont like Rangar stealing
cottages there in the future.

Fishing can be begged from Monty (he should give it, can get some extra gold too), and no unimproved tiles were worked at all. Like I said, I switched them in the current turn to finish the library immediately. I thought I had moved archer out of Bloody Hills' queue when I handed the save (obviously no).

Settled the gift city there since Monty wanted to settle somewhere nearby (see the settler from obsolete's save) and that city will not steal the little cottage from Bloody Hill (which has no culture at the moment) nor incur extra land contact. I thought to settle over the oasis and kill it but that would mean more border contact.

After connecting the wheat and the deers the health will be quite ok.

We can trade copper for corn and some gold once Monty has it, just watch for the opportunity. The deal shall not anger Willem.

 

[Dirk1302]

Maybe the first academy should be in copper city. If we can get fishing from Monty we certainly should go sailing next, i don't think a deep beeline to col is best now as we're not out of trouble when we get there. Tr's with Willem_team probably amount to 3 commerce/tr.

 

[bestsss]

To connect to Willem we just need to connect to Toku via road I think.

We would have had trading route to Willem but after stopped the war if Monty had roads to Willem/Churchill (looks like no, or the trade routes are updated on the next turn only, cant remember).
It's very likely Joao/Toku to have roads to Willem.
Trade routes do not need open borders only wars prevent them.
---
On a second thought it'd take too much time to get Ragnar to pleased as well (to allow any tech trading) to beg anything from Monty, so it'd be gold only that we can ask.
We can hold selling Meditation a few turns since Ragnar cannot trade w/ anyone now I think and get more gold for.

I don't remember when was the last time the diplo-situation was that bad, esp. for a spiritual leader.

 

[shyuhe]

Got it, will look and post some comments. Off the top of my head, I'd actually send a settler north to Ragnar's land and gift him a city to bring him to pleased. We really need to be able to tech trade to catch up here. Also, since Willem's team declared on the nuts, we should be safe from any more trouble with the nuts due to diplo modifiers. So as others have mentioned, I'll probably be shifting most of our troops to the west.

If we leave Hindu, we'll probably avoid worst enemy status of Toku but that may endanger our relations with Monty...

 

[Dirk1302]

@bestsss, I actually tried ob with Churchill after switching out of Hindu this turn but no trade. Probably because Monty_team is at war with Churchill. So we'll need to make a road to Toku then. + Toku needs to be roaded to Churchill/Willem but here the fact that they have sailing might be enough. Seems a bit iffy so maybe accumulate some more cash and road up to Toku, see if we get trade. It's a rather strange situation and i admit to not knowing trade mechanics well enough to comment with certainty.

Our relations with Monty only allow us to beg from Monty, no more. The team relation towards us remains cautious and they're at war with Willem_team now. So beg from Monty now and switch out of hindu i'd think.

 

[bestsss]

Dirk, trade is visible by trading resources (or the icon of BUG mod), we dont have trade route to willem now. We would have got it after I stopped the war if Monty had road to Willem, regardless his war unless both Willem and us are in war w/ Monty.

>>here the fact that they have sailing might be enough.
hmm actually yes, as long as they don't enter a war between themselves.

Trade routes are very weird, yet to get routes to Willem the easiest would be a road to Toku. We cant beg from Monty anything this turn, he has no money and his team won trade tech to us, so we cant beg. (that sucks, otherwise we would have gotten at least fishing).
If he gets any money ask him, he'd be nice and happy to help (as long as we are Hindu)

We will get ragnar to pleased after we switch out hindu and the civic bonus kicks in, so we will be able to trade with if Monty is also pleased but since we won't have Hindu he will be cautious, it bloody blows.
Border contact will worsen the relations too. We need team attitude from Monty's team 'pleased' to trade any tech with them. Either both of them pleased or one friendly, one cautious.
Same w/ Toku/Joao.

Willem's team will trade us on cautious.

 

[Dirk1302]

So Monty hasn't got a road to Willem_team. Since we have no ob with Toku we'll be entirely dependent on him building a road into his own culture before we can connect to that road, now that might take quite a while since he needs to send a worker and that worker'll improve tiles before roads i guess since roads are low priority for a civ with sailing.

@Duckweed,Since wandering a settler into Tokuland is impossible and not much use anyway i take it you mean gifting Toku a city? There's not much room to do so, maybe we should have done so much earlier but alas. We should try to take the south western barb city and if it's not to our liking (not if it's nice and beautiful) we could gift it to Toku. We should build toads before we do so to solve the problem mentioned above.

 

[Duckweed]

^I see there's still a passage western so that we can settle a city there as a gift. Even that passage is gone, there is definitely room in southern edge.

 

[Duckweed]

Some suggestions:

2 settlers to gift Toku and Ragnar, this should be a priority.

Religion -- No state before we can give Toku a city.

OB with Willem/Churchill -- NO, we need to get Monty/Ragnar to pleased. I don't want to take the "You refused to stop trading with our worst enemy". Willem/Churchill has no menace on us. They also don't OB with Joao/Toku.

Cities -- Grow to work all good tiles before running scientists. For instance, let Delhi grow to size 10 and run 2 scientists, it will still have 4F+ providing a good growth rate. All those archers are useful, we need them for happiness.

Tech -- Alpha->math->Currency->CoL We need all those 20% discount. We may resume research after libs up in major cities.
Edit: Aes could be good if Willem/Churchill has not research it yet.

 

[bestsss]

About passage, I checked a save where the barb city border was visible and Toku took it. It must have been SW (on the coast) from the spices and what we see is Toku's city border pop which means iron is also taken.
The red tile 2W from the barb city also suggests that the forest west of it is taken too.
So I don't think there will be a passage.
--
How are we going to get Monty to pleased w/o religion? He is -2 just for starting on deity.

Ragnar will take a city on our west too (9 tiles from his hill conquest) but I guess we have to find something for Toku.

 

[Duckweed]

^ Then settle a city in southern edge.

Change back to Hindu after Toku get the liberated city.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Duckweed, i agree on alpha (depending on our needing sailing or not) and gifting cities if possible is ok with me too. Which good tiles did you have in mind? Don't see why you should grow the cities now, working unimproved tiles. Improve them first, grow then. Going alpha instead of mon would have worked out a bit better in that respect. Monty/Ragnar pleased is all very well but we need to pickup some trade too. Good chance Monty_team will turn on Willem_team next time anyway, they'll be annoyed with them, cautious with us. Alternatively we'll have to do with trade from Monty/Ragnar, will not be as profitable but is a bit safer especially if Toku decides to hate willem_team more than us, there's still Joao though who'll probably get along with that team quite well. We may need to chose sides when diplo is more fixed, a bit early to say right now.

 

[The Rook]

Expansion

We might still be able to win the Phant site (assuming we want it) if Toku doesn't settle on the Phants or the hill immediately south of the ivory. For example:

T1 (this turn): Switch Vijay to settler.
T2: Whip settler.
T3: Move settler to oasis.
T4: Settle on desert (1N of Oasis), not a bad site with fresh water, FPs, Phants, hills, and can even reach rice and fish.

There is also a possibility Ragnar will pop his borders before Toku can get through now that he can build culture. Worst ways the settler could always be the one sent to Toku, and Vijay is already working 2 unimproved FPs (with poor health) so little is lost from the city through whipping. This tactic also safeguards against the possibility of losing the fish should Toku get really greedy and try settling on the plains hill for fish/phants.

Obviously we want to try and capture the barb cities south of Vijay if possible.


Happiness/Religion:

We need to switch out of Hindu to lose worst enemy status with Joao/Toku. When Toku/Joao OB with Willem/Churchill (assuming they all stay Buddhist), I'd be tempted to OB with Willem/Churchill too. A Buddhist missionary could do a great deal for our diplomatic options, especially if the religious climate stays this way. The extra potential trade routes would be welcome too, though we need to explore some more first, perhaps when Monty/Ragnar are willing to OB again. Now that we are safe from Monty/Ragnar for a little while, we could shift some units from Bloody Hill to places where they are needed for happiness lost from religion. Also, note that Resource City doesn't have any form of garrison.


Tech:

I favour Alphabet next. The ability to build research could temporarily aid our collapsing economy, and obviously it's a Currency prerequisite.

 

[Duckweed]

@Duckweed, i agree on alpha (depending on our needing sailing or not) and gifting cities if possible is ok with me too. Which good tiles did you have in mind? Don't see why you should grow the cities now, working unimproved tiles. Improve them first, grow then. Going alpha instead of mon would have worked out a bit better in that respect. Monty/Ragnar pleased is all very well but we need to pickup some trade too. Good chance Monty_team will turn on Willem_team next time anyway, they'll be annoyed with them, cautious with us. Alternatively we'll have to do with trade from Monty/Ragnar, will not be as profitable but is a bit safer especially if Toku decides to hate willem_team more than us, there's still Joao though who'll probably get along with that team quite well. We may need to chose sides when diplo is more fixed, a bit early to say right now.

There are 8 improved tiles in Delhi, plus the riverside grassland cottage next turn, those are 9 good tiles, so Delhi need 11 citizens to work them while hiring 2 scientists, after that Delhi will be dedicated to settler/worker for quite a while. Same thing in Bombay, halt the growth without working on FP and riverside cottage is not good, so better let it grow to size 7 before starting the worker and running 2 scientists. Working on unimproved tiles several turns to grow is better than missing working on improved tiles. The only case you want to halt the growth is that the happy cap does not afford.

Monty/Ragnar has told us that cautious is not much safer than annoyed, this is especially dangerous during the period of peace treaty. Pleased altitude is much much safer. In the future, we might consider OB with Willem/Churchill to get the Buddhism spread, but during the war time, I wonder whether they are willing to send one. Let's make Joao/Toku team to pleased 1st, which is the most important thing for now.