The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[Dirk1302]

Writing->iw looks ok. Swords make mince out of those barb cities.

I disagree with farming everything here as i did before. This way It'll take forever to come out of the stone age altogether. Sure we can bulb some things when we reach math/col/alpha. But that'll take quite some time this way. We''ll soon reach a point where we have enough settlers/workers. We will wonder what to build/whip next as our cities grow into unhappiness. My detailed plan consists of building granary, some workers and settlers and cottage the rest of the capital. At least cottage the fp that's still open, to put a farm there takes 2 turns longer and gives us an extra food which'll be dubious. Maybe we should cottage the farmed fp's too, depends on how much workers/settlers still have to be built.

 

[shyuhe]

Tech writing -- IW

Build: Delhi: worker, granary whip, finish archer, then library while growing to 7.

Bombay: archer, granary, library.

Bombay worker farms FP.

Delhi (new) worker farms FP, then chops the forest between the two grass hills before heading west.

 

[shyuhe]

@Dirk - the FP with the sign on it's been farmed for two turns. It's faster to finish the farm than it is to cottage it. I'd prefer to granary whip settlers/workers while growing on infra builds. We can cottage Bombay's next FP.

 

[Dirk1302]

Ok, but you typically need cottages around your capital. It's not as effective near other cities. Well we'll see how it turns out with farms. The whole idea of farming a capital with floodplains is outrageous imo more so now it turns out trading is going to be difficult. Now i'm not saying we shouldn't have farmed those fp's though i would have preferred mines first growing on unfarmed fp's. We just have gotten pottery and we need to build a fair amount of settlers and workers. But i think those tiles need to be reconfigured once the settler/worker task is done. At the time we'll get buro you'd like to have villages there. So we should reconfigure ~ 30 turns before that so some time left indeed. We won't have villages once the academy is planted which is a pity.

 

[Duckweed]

@Dirk

As I mentioned before, each cottaged FP give you an average of ~2C per turn until it matures, I don't think it would be better than 1F which make us 1/3 faster on growing back now, we need lots of workers/settlers in this game since the only way to please our neighbor is to liberate city to them. After RP, watermill is also a very good improvement on those 3 FPs.

 

[Dirk1302]

Yes, we've been in this discussion before, we'll see how it goes. There's happiness to consider as well regarding growback. Also the earlier you work cottages near capital the more profit since it'll go through all the multipliers. Too hard to calculate. RP? it'll take an enormous amount of time to get there atm. Far more than getting to CS when matured cottages will shine.

 

[shyuhe]

We're going to be self-teching until we can get Ragnar to pleased, so it'll be a while before we get to CS I'm afraid. Hopefully we'll be able to backsell some techs for cash at least.

Why don't we chop some of the riverside grassland forests for cottages? It'll speed up our worker/settler production and open up cottage tiles, while maintaining our ability to whip/grow.

 

[Dirk1302]

Sure it's quite some time to CS. But my point is that rp is much further away. But i agree with chopping to get to river grass cottages. We probably can't work them immediately but can get them to villages before CS. We can leave the fp's in peace then for the time being.

 

[Duckweed]

More than 2/3 of my games have been played without a single cottage in capital. Here's one example you might have an impression

This is yours -- 4 cottages

Mine -- no cottage

There's 2 important facts of farms over cottages you might overlook
1. In early stage, city grows faster, which means more hammer and commerce yield from the extra citizens over time. Faster growth also means faster infrastructures up.
2. In late stage, city's size is bigger. Bigger size city means more hammer yield and more trade route income. Usually in this stage, production is more important than commerce since capital is usually a major base for unit pumping.

In this game, farms provide another benefit -- GPP, our 1st GS is possibly needed to be born in capital.

 

[Dirk1302]

Difference is oxford, 400 gpt 1110 is very low commerce for 1110 AD. I don't remember this game clearly, is it your warmonger game ptII? Seeing production and some cavs produced already i probably just scrambled to rifles maybe prebuilding horse units disregarding infra. I won that game easily iirc.

Cities don't grow faster as they're capped. You build workers and settlers a bit faster. Cottaged or not i tend to have capital close to cap most of the time.

Late stage you're capped by health, even cottaged cities suffer from this but farmed cities see -10 health easily.TR extra income is extremely marginal compared to cottages.

I wonder if it's possible to build first GS in capital, even with farms the capital will lose it's production power. I played my own deity game with the Babylonians with a farmed capital. I was really low on food there and it wasn't a big cottage site, i also wanted to expand fast. The situation here is a bit comparable, we need to expand here too. However

This site is a far better cottage site, it's +8 on food with every fp cottaged.
We seem to have more room here there was more room than i expected in my own game as well.
There are lots of barb cities up already, we need swords for that. By the time we'll get to iw we can build some swords also in other cities.

Not cottaging the capital in my own game hurt a lot on commerce, moving the capital wasn't a solution as it just took too long. It'll hurt here too.

 

[Duckweed]

I have not built OU for the entire of that game.

In this game, If you're willing to skip the 3 riverside hill, yes it's +8F, otherwise it's +4F.

Cottages is overrated.

 

[Dirk1302]

You probably had GLH then.

8F is good for whipping. For a stationary situation 0F would even be good enough if happy cap is reached. Cottages on fp's around capital are certainly not overrated.

 

[Duckweed]

How could I got GLH without a coastal capital and 2nd and 3rd cities were also inland?

Here's another example

Yours -- 4 cottages

and this is your tech rate.

Mine -- no cottage in capital

With granary, 1F = 2H through whipping, how can an average of 2C from cottage matches? When the city grow to happy cap, 1F = 0.5 Sci = 1.5B +3 GPP (with phi), I also don't see any match of 2C with that. With a financial leader, I'll slightly prefer cottage for this capital, and definitely prefer farm otherwise. With a philosophical leader in this game, cottage is clearly a mistake.

 

[shyuhe]

Who would have though we'd end up with an SE/CE (ish) debate here

 

[Dirk1302]

Seems like another example where i didn't care too much about techrate/infra after the relevant tech was reached, steel in this case, this happens often in my games. Where i have steel you don't have rifling btw so it's not so evident that your techrate was always better. You can probably dig up a whole lot of games which don't offer an exact comparision. In a few recent Liz games i had 1000 bpt 1000 AD. Wouldn't have made that amount without cottages. Would have been a bit less with a non financial leader but still substantial.

I'm not going to argue this point any further, build farms all you like and see how it goes.

 

[Duckweed]

Real examples only provide extra support from the fact. While the real point about farm is

With granary, 1F = 2H through whipping, how can an average of 2C from cottage matches? When the city grow to happy cap, 1F = 0.5 Sci = 1.5B +3 GPP (with phi), I also don't see any match of 2C with that. With a financial leader, I'll slightly prefer cottage for this capital, and definitely prefer farm otherwise. With a philosophical leader in this game, cottage is clearly a mistake.

Faster growth and infrastructures compensate the loss of commerce from cottages, after you reach a certain military advantage, production is far more important than commerce.

 

[PaulisKhan]

This is the problem with too many Deity players in one thread >.>

btw I'm still in favour of skipping

By the time we get our first sword build I could have almost enough axes (-edited for truthiness-) to capture a city
In addition axes are much much better defense against Monte/Toku if either of them declare early (Unless they go the HA route but Monte is much more likely to swarm us with Jaguars).

Thoughts?

Actually... I guess it doesn't matter too much since I only plan to play through writing which we all agree on.

As for cities, I still want to build with the bronze/rice in 3x3 and then Obs city site after that.

 

[Duckweed]

We need best players for this game with little hope.

By the time you connect the copper, IW is almost completed.

Edit: Obs and who has not propose your idea regarding either the tech path or the city build, please hurry up.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Maybe, but we have no guarantee of iron at all!

-edit- I'm really enjoying the discussion and watever we decide I'll commit to fully.

 

[shyuhe]

Question regarding begging from AI teams - if Monty is pleased with us but Ragnar is cautious, can we not beg from Monty? Also, would this allow us to beg sailing?