The Most Moddable Civilization ever....apparently isn't that moddable.

[vandyr]

Woops, I stand corrected. I could have *sworn* the SDK was out earlier than that. Guess my memory is a bit hazy!

Aussie.

No, its just the selective memory you and many other Civ V bashers have when it comes to comparing it with Civ IV.

Moderator Action: Please keep the discussion civil.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[YoHo]

I also want to point out that blaming the testers, or the programmers, or 2K is pointless. There's no one group "responsible" for a game.

Some facts from the industry:
- Testers don't have time to find all the bugs / issues.
- Developers don't have time to fix all reported bugs / issues.
- Producers don't have time to implement all design features.
- Designers don't have time to balance all components.
- Studios don't have time to complete all projects.
- Publishers don't have time to allow true innovation.
- Consumers demand shorter dev cycles and faster turn-around.

Consider that Firaxis had two years (from Civ Rev release) to turn out Civ5. That's a HUGE ask! Look at the polish of Starcraft II with its TEN YEARS of development. And it still had problems!

IMO (and feel free to disagree with me), the games industry is under increasing pressure from consumers to produce better, more polished, more innovative games in shorter times. At the same time as consumers demanding to pay less. Studios do amazing things to keep consumers happy.

Like anything in the computing sector, you can choose TWO of these three things:
- Quality
- Cheap
- Fast

This is probably one of the best posts I've read here.

I'm a QA/System Tester in the Telecommunications industry.
I've spent plenty of time working on Firmware that has a fixed release date (soon) and a fixed price.
Inevitably, in such circumstances the quality of the end product has always been horrible or the release date gets pushed (which costs the company money.).

PC game manufacturers are in a tough position. I have no doubt in my mind that the release date simply couldn't be pushed out at all and while plenty of people here would probably pay $100 for the game, most customers wouldn't. So your price is fixed too.
With those 2 things locked in by the realities of the game world in 2010. How can quality do anything but suffer?

It's not an excuse so much as reality whether we like it or not.

 

[SevenSpirits]

Which ones, exactly? I mean, AFAIK you can make new wonders, natural wonders, etc. with just XML (though pics will be reused).

Some of the guys on the customization forums have found out how to make new units, reskin graphics, and import civ4 units into CiV, amongst other things.

Oh.

Yeah, Poncratias was talking about the graphics. And he didn't mention units (which I know do work). That's disappointing.

 

[Akka]

No, its just the selective memory you and many other Civ V bashers have when it comes to comparing it with Civ IV.

Ah, like the "Civ 4 was received as badly as Civ5 on release" and the like that many Civ5 lovers have ?
Guess selective memories are somehow common to everyone !

 

[vandyr]

Ah, like the "Civ 4 was received as badly as Civ5 on release" and the like that many Civ5 lovers have ?
Guess selective memories are somehow common to everyone !

Heh, look up some archive threads and old posts from Civ 4 launch days and see for yourself.

 

[Fabiano1979]

Let me use this topic to ask one question:

Theres hope that someday a MOD can change the civics?

I just hate then...they remenber me of something like the skill trees of the action rpgs...I really miss the option to change the way of governament and the traditional democracy, monarchy etc

 

[Lone Wolf]

The gameplay of Civ4 was received better then the one of Civ5, though there had been some "Civ3 is the best of the series, why does the new version suck so much " rants, too. But half of the fora wasn't filled with critical threads.

 

[Zen Blade]

Let me use this topic to ask one question:

Theres hope that someday a MOD can change the civics?

I just hate then...they remenber me of something like the skill trees of the action rpgs...I really miss the option to change the way of governament and the traditional democracy, monarchy etc

Do you mean change the civics already selected? Not sure how far off that is.

If you mean change the properties and names of the civics (social policies), that is "easy". I know there is at least one mod out there.
My mod in progress has complete changes of all branches. 5 are completed (including changing prereq policies, names, attributes) and the other 5 are mapped/planned out but are on the backburner until I figure out some AI issues.

The neat thing about the policies I am planning is that some will cause problems when adopted (extra unhappiness, slower military production) to symbolize discontent amongst your retainers, soldiers, peasants, etc...
However, in the end each branch will be a net positive, just depends on what your civilizaiton is strong/weak at.


And, I agree that the Civ IV reception was much better than Civ V. I liked it far far better. And the Warlord and BTS expansions were like, "this is now the single most awesome game ever".

 

[poncratias]

Which ones, exactly? I mean, AFAIK you can make new wonders, natural wonders, etc. with just XML (though pics will be reused).

Some of the guys on the customization forums have found out how to make new units, reskin graphics, and import civ4 units into CiV, amongst other things.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=392985
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=392773
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=394056

Check out this forum for more stuff.

It's pretty complicated, and hopefully things get easier once Firaxis gets around to upgrading mod tools, but it can be done. Even recall seeing a thread where some guys are making new leaderheads, though those looked a fair distance from completion.

to make it clear: i know this discussions, I've been with them since the releaseday of civ5.
one of those "howto import civ 4 to civ 5" in that forum is even a thread started by me!
and just because of my time in the mod forum i can say clearly now:


It is NOT possible to make new wonders,terrain improvements, etc.

you can make units and that also only if you use lemmy101's selfmade tools, but even those are still limited to some extend.
and that's all!

Heck, even Lemmy himself, a guy who REALLY knows what's possible and what not, is frustrated to the bones because of the limitations on modding!!!!

And if you know how and where to look, if you can open and dive into the dll's and binaries, you'll clearly see that things aren't even written to support any of that missing mod features in the future!!!!!!

They would have to completely rewrite some stuff to enable most stuff!!

 

[Dale]

I can't believe that there are actually people claiming " WTH you can mod what ever you want, everything is possible, there are no limitations etc"


It's NOT !



I doubt any of them really went into the modding deep enough.

Trust me. I've been into the modding ability of Civ5 much much MUCH deeper than anyone else on this forum (except maybe the silent lurkers from Firaxis, may their names not be uttered Sorry BW & SS, couldn't resist ).

You can mod everything in Civ5, except for the two aforementioned components which have separate licensing.

 

[smellymummy]

Let me use this topic to ask one question:

Theres hope that someday a MOD can change the civics?

I just hate then...they remenber me of something like the skill trees of the action rpgs...I really miss the option to change the way of governament and the traditional democracy, monarchy etc

yes its just when someone gets around to making one

 

[SevenSpirits]

Trust me. I've been into the modding ability of Civ5 much much MUCH deeper than anyone else on this forum (except maybe the silent lurkers from Firaxis, may their names not be uttered Sorry BW & SS, couldn't resist ).

You can mod everything in Civ5, except for the two aforementioned components which have separate licensing.

I don't think there's any need for trust, you just have to say how those things can be modded and anyone can verify it right?

 

[Dale]

I don't think there's any need for trust, you just have to say how those things can be modded and anyone can verify it right?

I can't till the gamecore code is released. Like Civ4 for the first 6 months, this is only "surface modding" until the gamecore code is released.

 

[YoHo]

While I think that the CiV reception is demonstrably and effectively worse than Civ4. Remember, CivIII was generally not considered as good a game as Civ2 and Civ4 was a very good remodel of CivIII. Civ4 started out in a position where people found many flaws in the previous game.

With CiV, while there are flaws in Civ4, it's more about new directions and different concepts as opposed to strictly speaking improvements. And that makes the comparison difficult on a number of fronts.

 

[Akka]

Heh, look up some archive threads and old posts from Civ 4 launch days and see for yourself.

What I'll see is that there were definite rough edges, but :
- It was generally agreed that the changes were for the better, and the complaints focused on the technical problems, NOT the design ones, unlike Civ5 which have copious amount of both.
- There were some heated debates and opinions, but nowhere near AS MUCH as for Civ5.

Big differences, that are somehow selectively and conveniently "forgotten".

 

[SevenSpirits]

I can't till the gamecore code is released. Like Civ4 for the first 6 months, this is only "surface modding" until the gamecore code is released.

OK. But that's the WHOLE FREAKING POINT. It's not very moddable right now. That is the point under discussion.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

No, its just the selective memory you and many other Civ V bashers have when it comes to comparing it with Civ IV.

Moderator Action: Please keep the discussion civil.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Oh dear, Vandyr, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel. I already pointed out that I was enjoying my game-play & modding experiences in Civ4 that the whole first 6 months of its release was a blur (its a wonder I didn't get fired for being late to work-I was playing it so much). By contrast, here we are nearly 2 months after Civ5 was released, & I've played it no more than half a dozen times (& have yet to finish a game-they're just that TEDIOUS). So, no selective memory there, Vandyr, just the REALITY of the situation!

 

[Dale]

OK. But that's the WHOLE FREAKING POINT. It's not very moddable right now. That is the point under discussion.

Because as advertised the gamecore code won't be released till later. What's the point of arguing moddability of Civ5 when 75% of the moddability hasn't been released yet? In fact, if you look at Civ4 2 months after release, it was LESS moddable than Civ5 is NOW.

 

[lemmy101]

Heck, even Lemmy himself, a guy who REALLY knows what's possible and what not, is frustrated to the bones because of the limitations on modding!!!!

I appreciate the complement and all but a few times since my annoyed thread I've been brought up as an example of a modder angry with Firaxis about limitations in the modding. I'd had a really bad day there and, on the whole, am still in the 'impressed' camp over all and always remain thankful that the game is moddable at all considering the DLC and Hot Coffee times we live in.

The mod tools were always going to take the back seat to the game when it came to post-release support, and don't want to look like I'm one of the angry mob that I've been pretty much solid in my opposition to since release day.

Nexus may be a bit faulty at the moment, the documentation non-existent and the lua hooks may not be ideal, but I have no doubt it will get there and what is there is massively indicative that Civ 5 will be by far the most moddable Civ ever.

The SQL system is a work of genius frankly and a MASSIVE step up from Civ 4's static XML loading system, as it effectively gives you the ability to add or alter their values to the game while it's in progress. The impact this will have on mods, even those not using the C++ source code, is immense. Lua is much better than python, and the UI system is wonderful, and once the Nexus tools are fixed I'm sure they will open up a lot of possibilities.

so yeah, I've been quite frustrated when delving into lua script and hitting roadblocks, but then I wasn't around for Civ 4's modding this close after release, so I only have the situation at hand, or Civ 4 toward the end, to compare it to when it comes to modding.

So yeah it makes me cringe a little bit whenever I've been brought up, I wish I just kept my frustrations to myself that day. ;D I also made a regrettable annoyed post on 2K games and can't take that back either.

 

[Kyriakos]

I must say that i was ready to buy the game, nomatter that steam is a pain, if it was very moddable. I have a great amount of building models i made and would like to use them in civ5.
But for the time being it seems to be impossible to do so :/