The Myth of the US independent Voter

[_random_]

I think dt meant monolithic.

I figured as much. Just thought I'd be a little facetious. Then again, it did seem to get people in the mood for religious discussion.

 

[BasketCase]

Did you not read the OP? It is pretty clear that "independent" does NOT mean Centrist.

Where else is an independent voter going to go?? The Republicans have the right covered, the Democrats have the left covered. That's why most independent voters get swallowed up by one of those two. Going beyond either of those two takes the Voter into fascist/socialist territory, and there are thankfully so few socialists and fascists in America that neither faction will ever make any significant ground in a U.S. election.

The middle is the only place for independents to go.

If centrist is what you want, then Obama is your man.

No, he is definitely not. Obama's only compromises were between far-left Democrats and moderate Democrats (who are still liberals). For the first two years of his reign, Obama shut out the Republicans completely. He's only talking to the Republicans now because their majority in the House leaves him no choice. And those policies of Obama's that are in the center, only ended up there when one or another of his policies failed.

Obama is very much left of center (though not far enough to be an actual socialist).

 

[useless]

...Obama is definitely NOT left of centre.

 

[pi-r8]

No, he is definitely not. Obama's only compromises were between far-left Democrats and moderate Democrats (who are still liberals). For the first two years of his reign, Obama shut out the Republicans completely. He's only talking to the Republicans now because their majority in the House leaves him no choice. And those policies of Obama's that are in the center, only ended up there when one or another of his policies failed.

Obama is very much left of center (though not far enough to be an actual socialist).

I don't think you understand what far-left Democrats are like. Most of us would want to increase spending, for example, while Obama keeps calling for spending cuts. Please, name something specific he did that was leftist.

 

[BasketCase]

...Obama is definitely NOT left of centre.

Yes. He is. And I explained why.

I don't think you understand what far-left Democrats are like. Most of us would want to increase spending, for example, while Obama keeps calling for spending cuts. Please, name something specific he did that was leftist.

Advocated higher taxes on the rich. Advocated fewer tax breaks for corporations. Advocated lifting DADT. Advocated less domestic oil drilling. Advocated expanding into non-nuclear alternative energy. Advocated looser immigration rules. Locked the door on Republicans for two full years. Did increase spending by a whole lot (whatever claims he made about demanding spending cuts, are refuted by his actions). Passed a health care deform bill that put the whole burden of fixing American health care on employers and insurance companies. Signed the initial repeal of DADT (before pulling a two-face).

Fortunately, the American political system being the Gordian Knot that it is, Obama wasn't able to actually do much of anything (you'll note most of the things on the above list are things he said). Most of Obama's "not a liberal" appearances are not for lack of trying, but due to trying and failing.

 

[JollyRoger]

Advocated higher taxes on the rich.

He actually advocated the Bush tax plan to stay in place for the rich, but eventually compromised to cutting their taxes for 2011 and 2012.

 

[MobBoss]

...Obama is definitely NOT left of centre.

I guess that all depends on where you place the center. To me, he is certainly left of center.

 

[downtown]

Where else is an independent voter going to go?? The Republicans have the right covered, the Democrats have the left covered. That's why most independent voters get swallowed up by one of those two. Going beyond either of those two takes the Voter into fascist/socialist territory, and there are thankfully so few socialists and fascists in America that neither faction will ever make any significant ground in a U.S. election.

The middle is the only place for independents to go.

Read the OP Basketcase. It explains how there is no defined "independent" voter group, or at least, not one that shares anything in common. Nearly all of them have strong enough political leanings to be considered likely Dems or Republicans.

 

[Cutlass]

I guess that all depends on where you place the center. To me, he is certainly left of center.

Then you're center is to the right of Nixon, Ford, Eisenhower, and half of all Republican members of Congress in the postwar era.

 

[BasketCase]

No. The center is between Obama on the one side and Nixon/Ford/Eisenhower/etc on the other.

It explains how there is no defined "independent" voter group, or at least, not one that shares anything in common. Nearly all of them have strong enough political leanings to be considered likely Dems or Republicans.

That was my whole point to begin with. If they lean left or right, they get snapped up by the Reps or Dems. Any true Independent must be in the center. There are no true Independents because there are no true centrist candidates to vote for.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Here's a thought...why not vote for a candidate that actually espouses the ideals you believe in..like someone from the World Socialist Workers party for instance?

And if thats your 'ploy' it hasnt exactly worked. In fact, I think this last few rounds of democrats you helped elect have moved the needle further towards conservatism than liberalism or socialism.

Degrees. The GOP is more conservative. Once the death knell sounds, our tactics will change again.

 

[JollyRoger]

No. The center is between Obama on the one side and Nixon/Ford/Eisenhower/etc on the other.

Agreed - Obama is right of center and the others left of center.

 

[BasketCase]

No. Obama is left of center and Nixon/etc are right of center. (And people who see such distinctions between left and right are smack in the center)

 

[pi-r8]

Advocated higher taxes on the rich. Advocated fewer tax breaks for corporations. Advocated lifting DADT. Advocated less domestic oil drilling. Advocated expanding into non-nuclear alternative energy. Advocated looser immigration rules. Locked the door on Republicans for two full years. Did increase spending by a whole lot (whatever claims he made about demanding spending cuts, are refuted by his actions). Passed a health care deform bill that put the whole burden of fixing American health care on employers and insurance companies. Signed the initial repeal of DADT (before pulling a two-face).

Fortunately, the American political system being the Gordian Knot that it is, Obama wasn't able to actually do much of anything (you'll note most of the things on the above list are things he said). Most of Obama's "not a liberal" appearances are not for lack of trying, but due to trying and failing.

Half of these are things that most americans agree with. Like higher taxes on the rich (although in the end that didn't happen), fewer tax loopholes for corporations (which also hasn't happened), and investing in alternative energy (happened only in a small amount). When the majority of americans agree with something, you can't really call it leftist, regardless of what republicans say.

The other half is just republican talking points that aren't actually true. He never called for repealing DADT until the military decided to do it. He never called for looser immigration rules. He certainly never "locked the door" on republicans- he endlessly tried, futilely, to find compromise with them, and it never worked because the republicans in the senate were so united against him.

and "putting the whole burden on fixing American health care on employers"... gimme a break. That's just a straight up republican talking point. You realize this health care plan was modeled on Romney's healthcare reform in massachusetts, right? Or is Romney a liberal too, by your standards?

I'm just wondering how Obama could have possibly positioned himself any further to the right, to qualify as a "centrist" by your standards, without just agreeing 100% with conservative republican policies.

 

[pi-r8]

No. Obama is left of center and Nixon/etc are right of center. (And people who see such distinctions between left and right are smack in the center)

Nixon was a raging liberal by today's standards. He withdrew from Vietnam, ended the gold standard, and instituted price controls. Not to mention the huge growth in government spending during his time in office...

 

[aronnax]

When you register to vote you have the choice as registering as a member of a party or not. If you choose not, then you are an independent. State laws vary. In some states you can only vote in the party primaries if you are registered as a member of that party. Some states allow independents to vote in either major party primaries.

Well then that's rather a silly gauge of political affiliation isn't it?
I bet many of those Independents are either too lazy to register or do not care for politics and just somehow are lumped into that statistic.

 

[Cutlass]

Well then that's rather a silly gauge of political affiliation isn't it?
I bet many of those Independents are either too lazy to register or do not care for politics and just somehow are lumped into that statistic.

The voting was opened up, but only in some places. The reasoning was they were displeased with the results.

 

[BasketCase]

Half of these are things that most americans agree with.

The 2010 midterms suggest otherwise. Everything on my list is stuff Americans are divided on and changing their minds about.

When the majority of americans agree with something, you can't really call it leftist

I can, and I did. When the majority of people in a country are, for example, fascists, that doesn't make fascism a centrist idea. It makes everybody in that country a right-wing nut. The political scale does not move. Human opinions do.

He never called for repealing DADT until the military decided to do it.

And Obama signed the repeal into law. That's left-of-center.

He never called for looser immigration rules.

DREAM Act. Never say "never", unless you're actually saying "never say 'never' ". On the flip side, Obama did call for securing the borders (that's one right-of-center promise he did make) but he never followed through on it.

He certainly never "locked the door" on republicans

Oh, yes he did. But he was very clever about it--he asked the Republicans to compromise, but never offered anything in return. Compromise requires both sides to give stuff up, or it's not a compromise. The only compromises Obama ever made were with moderate Democrats.

You realize this health care plan was modeled on Romney's healthcare reform in massachusetts, right? Or is Romney a liberal too, by your standards?

No. It only means Romney is a liberal on health care. In general he's still right of center. I myself am an atheist who believes in evolution. Does that mean I'm a liberal? Hell, no. I'm conservative on almost everything except religion and evolution (and three other big issues, but you get the idea). You can't cite the exceptions and call them the rule. Obama has indeed done several right-of-center things, such as keeping the Iraq and Afghanistan engagements going, and beating the crap out of Qadaffi. Doesn't make him a raging right-winger. Nixon did indeed do a few left-of-center things, but he was still a conservative. Mostly politicians cross the fence for one reason, and one reason only: to save their jobs. ("Thy tuk mah jerrrrrbs!!!")

I'm just wondering how Obama could have possibly positioned himself any further to the right, to qualify as a "centrist" by your standards, without just agreeing 100% with conservative republican policies.

Here's some ways. (1) By saying/doing nothing on gay rights, for or against. (2) By staying out of Libya and not opposing U.N. involvement in same (bombing Libya is conservative; opposing any military action in Libya is liberal; doing neither is centrist) (3) By being less gung-ho about government stimulus spending (lots of such spending is liberal, none is conservative, a moderate amount is centrist). (4) By adding domestic oil drilling and nuclear power to his domestic energy plan (Obama was sneaky about this too--during his campaign, whenever he said "we need to explore alternative energy" he then said "i.e. solar, wind, geothermal", and always left out nuclear power. He positioned himself as anti-nuclear without actually saying it.....)

And finally, here's something Obama has already done that's flat centrist: he didn't significantly change the tax code. Raising taxes on the rich would have been liberal; cutting them, conservative. Obama did neither. But that's an exception. The dude is still a lefty (but, again, not a socialist).

 

[Ajidica]

Oh, yes he did. But he was very clever about it--he asked the Republicans to compromise, but never offered anything in return.

Examples, please! Unless my newspaper is secretly the Pravda in disguise, Obama has capitulated on many elements in in various proposals, including today where he broached medicare cuts for the budget plan. He has compromised his position away, and you say he isn't compromising?
As Frank Herbert wrote: "Someone who has spent their entire life constructing one particular viewpoint, would rather die then see the antithesis of that viewpoint."
(I may have the exact wording wrong, I haven't read Dune Messiah in a while.)

 

[Cutlass]

Oh, yes he did. But he was very clever about it--he asked the Republicans to compromise, but never offered anything in return.

This can't even remotely be applied to Obama at any point in his term. But the false accusation keeps being thrown up. In every case Obama has tried to find common ground, and the Republicans have refused to do anything other than demand more.