The Naval Warship Thread!

[The Fjonis]

This is one of Norway's six new frigates. Pity that our defense budget will probably prevent them from being used. :lol Our minister of defense even said that with today's global military situation, they would never have been ordered.

 

[steviejay]

This may be slightly big but hey

This is concept art of the new Queen Elizabeth class Aircraft Carriers currently in development by us Brits

 

[Sidhe]

The Portuguese Carrack - streets ahead of its competition.

A carrack was a large galleon used in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries; three masted with the first two square rigged and the mizzen lateen rigged, carrying up to 1,200 tons of cargo, larger than a caravel with higher forecastles and aftcastles. These were also some of the first ships to have heavy cannons mounted on them.

Portuguese ships arrived in the Indian Ocean in 1498, looking for a sea route to the silks and spices of the East. The Portuguese took over many of the existing routes, and controlled the Indian Ocean trade through force of arms. For many years, English East Indiamen competed with the Portugese for the lucrative eastern trade.

Indian historians describe these vessels (and also Caravels) as the bringers of "seaborne terror". As some of the first ships to be mounted with cannons, they would sail into range of major Indian trading ports (such as Kalikut) and bomb the hell out of them, in order to secure outlandish trading rights.

I prefer the lighter frigates, more maneuverable and better on tacks into the wind, Carricks were so lumbering and unmaneuverable that a more nimble ship could dance across her T toying with her, of course in a straight navy vs navy galleon/ship of the line type deal I'd take a galleon/carrick every time. Mind you Frigates were late 16th century. Frigates were ideal foor hunting down Pirates and or privateers too, which has always struck me as a fun job.

Wouldn't the Portugeuse have used the man o' war 15th century design to harass the Indians?

in the 14th/15th century Carricks were more likely to support catapults and giant crossbows than cannons, the pope outlawed giant crossbows though because they fired treetrunks that tore people apart, didn't stop anyone using them though.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

A transitionary vessel:

 

[Rambuchan]

Sidhe: Frigates? Cha! They were too big, too costly, too heavy and too late in coming also. I am talking about an era before all that. An era which saw Europeans take to the oceans for the first time and also - mount guns on their ships for the first time. (I think your crossbow reference is from a century before, but am not sure).

Also, don't overlook the Caravel my friend (another Portuguese speciality). Compared with the Carrack, it was sleeker, faster and more maneouverable in coastal waters that were still largely unexplored. But the carrack slowly came into its own as time went on and more guns and cargo were needed.

Regarding their use of the man-o-war in the 15th century: The Portuguese only got to India in 1498. Anyway, you may be right about the man-o-war, but I've only ever read accounts of carracks doing the dirty on those Indians.

BTW - If you have civ3 conquests, you can play a scenario I made about all of this. It's the 'Rise & Fall of the Mughals v2', see sig. You can also open the spoiler to read the civilopedia entry I wrote for one of the techs - "Naval Gun Mounts" (apologies for all the formatting, I've just pasted it from the scenario text file)...

Spoiler :

TECH_Physics
^[Naval Gunmounts] represents developments to naval military (gun)
attachments during the time period.
^
^{New Ability} $LINK<Harbors=BLDG_Harbor> can be $LINK<connected=GCON_Trade> by
$LINK<sea=TERR_Sea> squares.
^
^Click description.
#DESC_TECH_Physics
^At the beginning of the 16th century the prime vessel for trade and
war was the {Carrack}, which developed rapidly over a period of about thirty
years. Up to the end of the 15th century [there was little to distinguish
merchant sailing ships from warships]. Warships were simply merchantmen equipped
with weapons and troops to use them. The basic tactic continued to be to close
with the enemy, grapple alongside and fight across the decks as though investing
a castle. The introduction of artillery did not initially change things very
much. The cannon used were either [small breech loaders] suitable only as [anti
personnel weapons], or cumbersome [wrought iron guns] which could not be brought
to bear easily and were, in any case, quite inaccurate.
^
^The [swivel guns] were sufficiently light weight to be carried at the highest
points in the ship to give a vantage over boarders. Even where ships were built
for war , as in [the Grace Dieu], they differed from merchant ships only in that
they were equipped with [very high castles to improve the tactical capability of
the light artillery]. As the cannon became heavier the castles were strengthened
and at some point in the 15th century shipwrights developed the method of [none
edge carvel] building on a skeleton, first seen on smaller boats with the 11th
century Byzantine ship at [Serce Liman]. Carvel building facilitated the fairing
of the castles into the hull rather than treating them as appendages resting on
the gunwhales of what were in other respects very large open boats. The castles
usually had several decks and cannon were mounted in the castles with their
muzzles protruding through holes cut in the sides. Shipwrights were therefore
quite happy to pierce the cagework of the castles but were very reluctant to put
holes into the hull below the level of the weather deck for fear of damaging the
watertight integrity of the hull. The heaviest guns were therefore placed on
[the weather deck].
^
^By 1547 a complete range of high quality [muzzle loading guns] had been
developed for naval use. They were generally cast in bronze and given specific
names and purposes, these included demi cannon, cannon perier and cannon which
were intended for long range exchanges and culverin, culverin bastard demi
culverin, saker and minion which were intended for short range. Each fired shot
of a specific weight which formed the antecedent for the naval guns rated by
pound weight as 32, 24, 18, 12 9, 6 and 3 pounders used for the next 250 years.

 

[IglooDame]

And Jackie Fisher's baby:

 

[Sidhe]

I haven't played conquests in a while Rambuchan, I might give it a go tomorrow thanks. I do remember that C3c lacked a decent mod for navy power, which left it pitifully under used at best.

Interesting spoiler

EDIT: I'm totally with you on sail ships though, they just look better than modern warships. And trust me I've been on enough modern warships, both in port and at sea to know what I'm talking about. The British navy seems to romanticise the old days in general so if you take a look round the average ward room you can see some much better paintings of old ships than the one you showed.

 

[Raisin Bran]

the super powerful canadian navy ships

the HMCS Iroquois

and the HMCS Algonquin

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Modern little cans and frigates are cute, in a small vulnerable type of way. One can get amusing results Springsharping them under the requirements for sinking.

 

[Sidhe]

Here are some pictures That show what I mean about maneuverability Rambuchan just FYI, these were the jaguars of the seas, able to turn on a sixpence and capable of pounding more cumbersome ships into submission. They were rightly feared by enemies to the crown and Pirates alike.

 

[IglooDame]

Modern little cans and frigates are cute, in a small vulnerable type of way. One can get amusing results Springsharping them under the requirements for sinking.

They aren't called missile sponges for nothing.

 

[Raisin Bran]

They aren't called missile sponges for nothing.

the canadian navy ships and subs don't need any missiles to sink

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Not even sponges, old boy. More like a mutated Swiss cheese with the cheese removed. An interesting topic.
My little addition showed the crossover between the old age and the new. It can be contended that the lessons have not been learnt.

As a final note, it is good to see a cross section of vessels, so that minds can ruminate on the changes in aesthetics. It once was that a vessel could look beautiful and intimidating; now, these attributes are left by the wayside.

 

[IglooDame]

Not even sponges, old boy. More like a mutated Swiss cheese with the cheese removed. An interesting topic.
My little addition showed the crossover between the old age and the new. It can be contended that the lessons have not been learnt.

As a final note, it is good to see a cross section of vessels, so that minds can ruminate on the changes in aesthetics. It once was that a vessel could look beautiful and intimidating; now, these attributes are left by the wayside.

I'll freely concede some bias here, but have you taken a look at the (relatively) new Arleigh Burke class of destroyers? They've gone back to steel construction for the superstructure, and by all accounts are considerably tougher to sink than your average Knox, Perry, or Spruance.

And I concur about the beautiful and the intimidating, but I daresay that's one of those recurring refrains the likes of which sailors once said about steamers versus tall ships.

 

[Sidhe]

I'll freely concede some bias here, but have you taken a look at the (relatively) new Arleigh Burke class of destroyers? They've gone back to steel construction for the superstructure, and by all accounts are considerably tougher to sink than your average Knox, Perry, or Spruance.

And I concur about the beautiful and the intimidating, but I daresay that's one of those recurring refrains the likes of which sailors once said about steamers versus tall ships.

You shouldn't be discussing new ship designs unless there already in the public arena, I remember when I signed the Official Secrets Act that doing so could get you arrested.

Saying that though the chances of me seeing or hearing about anything ground breaking were slim, although I did overhear a conversation about type 42 destroyers once, I've said too much!!!

 

[IglooDame]

You shouldn't be discussing new ship designs unless there already in the public arena, I remember when I signed the Official Secrets Act that doing so could get you arrested.

Saying that though the chances of me seeing or hearing about anything ground breaking were slim, although I did overhear a conversation about type 42 destroyers once, I've said too much!!!

The Arleigh Burke class already is in the public arena, witness any number of talking heads on the television news when USS Cole took a suicide boat on its port beam.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Santisima Trinidad: 140 cannons. The Yamato of the 18th century.

 

[Sidhe]

All the cannons in the world wont make much difference if the English have 3/2 firing ratio over you

There's a reason why the Civ3 special unit for the English is more powerfull than the others. And it aint the number of cannons, it's the superb drilling and expertese of the men.

That said that's a sweet looking ship

EDIT: Thanks Igloo I was being a bit ironic, but my knowledge of US ships is lacking to say the least.

EDIT2: this time it's wikid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Santísima_Trinidad

For those who don't know the history of the Trinidad here it is.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

I'll freely concede some bias here, but have you taken a look at the (relatively) new Arleigh Burke class of destroyers? They've gone back to steel construction for the superstructure, and by all accounts are considerably tougher to sink than your average Knox, Perry, or Spruance.

And I concur about the beautiful and the intimidating, but I daresay that's one of those recurring refrains the likes of which sailors once said about steamers versus tall ships.

Still not too difficult to sink then - a few SSM hits, gunfire, back breaker torpedos, or even a very cheap mission kill through strafing with 50 cals on the dinky electronics. But they are of their own type, and lovable for their own reasons.

Yes, a recurring refrain. This time, though, there is truth in the telling. A steamer, a liner, a cruiser, a battleship - all had grace and power in their lines and profile. The modern ones do not.

*Place holder for when one is sent a very different ship picture by a compatriot later tonight, so as to continue the flow of the thread*

 

[Till]

Everybody who has played Pirates knows that no galleon and no frigate can touch the mighty sloop!

Cheap, fast, little draught and superior manoeuvrability!

All the guns in the world are good for nothing, if you can't line them up with your opponent, because he keeps evading you!