Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
Actually i think Xen chose the name already, Legionarii Fulminata.
The next Roman flavor request-Legonarii Fulminata-bringing Rome into the age of Guns
- Thread starter Xen
- Start date
Kal-el
Deity
people, I think the Roman's would have kept up with the times in miliatry fashion and moved away from the Imperial look. More likly they would look a lot like the various Italian Princes' armies did.
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
Kal-El That is probably true, but since Xen is basing this unit on an alternate timeline, where the imperial look was the established one, he wants it to look like imperial legionaires armed with guns.
Cheers Thorgrimm
Cheers Thorgrimm
Kal-el
Deity
Cheers. 
Another POV -- if Rome had not fallen, then she would have remained technologically superior to all her neighbors (barring the Parthians) for some time to come, meaning she would have been SETTING the standard in military fashion.
In military fashion -- let's say, in the case of Rome being the first to develop gunpowder shoulder arms -- she might very well have found herself (more often than not) deploying against non-gunpowder-armed enemies, and defensive measures against, e.g., arrows, might very well yield the shield-cum-musket-stand.
-- Now, carry this one step further into full-blown battlefield tactics:
Against non-gunpowder-armed opponents -- and assuming the legionary still carried the gladius as a close-in weapon -- a likely formation for "musketeers" would NOT have been the historical Renaissance musket-and-pike; rather, the shield/stands could have been carried just as shields were in the testudo (tortoise) formation, ranks closed and shields raised against arrows etc. When within musket range, plant the shield, volley fire the weapon, sling the musket over the back, and close with the gladius for finishing things off.
... Just a thought.
-Oz
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
Ozy very insightful, couldn't have said it better myself.
Cheers Thorgrimm
Cheers Thorgrimm
Umm, perhaps you could[/u] lengthen the tunic...
Considering the firearm - perhaps something more precurser to the models shown - don't remember what it was called, but, essentially, looked like an iron cannon on a wooden bed - as used for seiges, only handheld. Think: 2x4 2foot long. Cast iron barrel to the length, and flared at the exit - with a hole at the other end for wick. No handle, no problem - and probably broke as many arms as fired 'bullets'
Retaining the shield is a very good idea - providing protection while firing and reloading, as well as support - where a person might need both hands and all their weight to brace the gun - and then going hammer and tongs at close range.
Considering the firearm - perhaps something more precurser to the models shown - don't remember what it was called, but, essentially, looked like an iron cannon on a wooden bed - as used for seiges, only handheld. Think: 2x4 2foot long. Cast iron barrel to the length, and flared at the exit - with a hole at the other end for wick. No handle, no problem - and probably broke as many arms as fired 'bullets'
Retaining the shield is a very good idea - providing protection while firing and reloading, as well as support - where a person might need both hands and all their weight to brace the gun - and then going hammer and tongs at close range.
I no reason why flared out silly looking pants would have come in style over a nice tunic- pansd might have ciome in, but for the northern legions, and the style probabley woul dhave been dropped about mid France...
also...I had an idea
- what if DOm pedro made the "standard" legionry as the musket man, and Centurion Pistolier....and yes, Kinboat, if you could make the gun graphics, that woul dbe AWESOME
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Kinboat: A model would be lovely. They don't really have a lot of early, early fire arms out there. And yes, it is Michael.
Anyway, I leave it to you guys to hash out the details because I really don't know a lot of specifics about Roman history and combat, etc.
I was thinking maybe it would be a good idea to do two Attack animations... in the first, the Roman soldier uses the hand cannon/arquebus, and then the Roman soldier closes in for the kill with the gladius in the AttackB as Oz was describing.
Now, here in lies one of the finer points about that... one of the main reasons why armies in the early Renaissance began to switch to gunpowder units over non-gunpowder units was that it was easier to train commoners to use these weapons and send them into the field than it was depend on the considerable training involved in becoming a knight and relying on that lethal yet finite portion of the population to do the fighting.
So here are my questions, how much training was required to use a gladius? Did the Romans use archers? If yes, what did they look like? And what was the Legionaire's opinion of the archers? I ask because it would likely be the archers (or at least the archer class) who would be given these new ranged weapons, no? And since, as I said, cost was a big issue behind the reason to adopt gunpowder weapons, it might be a case for why you might want to lose the armor as armor is more costly.
However, the other possibility is to give this gunpowder unit a higher cost in-game to reflect the additional armor as well as the additional training in close-quarters combat and give it an increased attack bonus or something along those lines.
Anyway, I leave it to you guys to hash out the details because I really don't know a lot of specifics about Roman history and combat, etc.
I was thinking maybe it would be a good idea to do two Attack animations... in the first, the Roman soldier uses the hand cannon/arquebus, and then the Roman soldier closes in for the kill with the gladius in the AttackB as Oz was describing.
Now, here in lies one of the finer points about that... one of the main reasons why armies in the early Renaissance began to switch to gunpowder units over non-gunpowder units was that it was easier to train commoners to use these weapons and send them into the field than it was depend on the considerable training involved in becoming a knight and relying on that lethal yet finite portion of the population to do the fighting.
So here are my questions, how much training was required to use a gladius? Did the Romans use archers? If yes, what did they look like? And what was the Legionaire's opinion of the archers? I ask because it would likely be the archers (or at least the archer class) who would be given these new ranged weapons, no? And since, as I said, cost was a big issue behind the reason to adopt gunpowder weapons, it might be a case for why you might want to lose the armor as armor is more costly.
However, the other possibility is to give this gunpowder unit a higher cost in-game to reflect the additional armor as well as the additional training in close-quarters combat and give it an increased attack bonus or something along those lines.
well here are some following things-
A)I would be willing to preveiw what pants on the figure would look like
B)the armour itself looks a bit..big...particuraly the shoulder plates
as for archers and such-
depends on the time, but by the Imperial era, auxilliary archers were in firm use- Romans themselves were not big fans of archery, usuallu adopting the Greek standpoint of it was a cowards way of fighting- that said, javilines, and javiline throwers were admired, and it was a sport, and form of warfare that was encouraged...
when we noth the design fo a gun, what dose it reming us of? a gun, or a spear?- the answer is, at least to me, a spear... combine its asthetics with the fact that auxilla, who while loyal to Rome are not Romans in full, at least ot in most cases, and I think it would indeed be the legionaries who were the gun weilders...
now pedro... what about my suggestion just above your post
A)I would be willing to preveiw what pants on the figure would look like
B)the armour itself looks a bit..big...particuraly the shoulder plates
as for archers and such-
depends on the time, but by the Imperial era, auxilliary archers were in firm use- Romans themselves were not big fans of archery, usuallu adopting the Greek standpoint of it was a cowards way of fighting- that said, javilines, and javiline throwers were admired, and it was a sport, and form of warfare that was encouraged...
when we noth the design fo a gun, what dose it reming us of? a gun, or a spear?- the answer is, at least to me, a spear... combine its asthetics with the fact that auxilla, who while loyal to Rome are not Romans in full, at least ot in most cases, and I think it would indeed be the legionaries who were the gun weilders...
now pedro... what about my suggestion just above your post
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
In the timeline only the Legions proper were equipped with fulminata and in the Centuries (company) only the Fulminatus (Weapons Master) knew what fulminata was made of hence the ability to keep its secret safe.
The Romans always considered archers as strictly Auxila and not part of a legion so the archers would not get fulminata.
The Romans always considered archers as strictly Auxila and not part of a legion so the archers would not get fulminata.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
The helmet kinda looks...not Roman, in the preview, anyway...That looks like a Greek helmet It still looks good.
It still looks good.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Well, its not a Greek helmet, I can tell you that much.
Xen - First of all, somewhat of a twist of irony that javelins would be revered while archers dismissed, hehe. Okay then, you've made a good case.
Secondly, with regards to making a pistol-weilding Centurion, I had actually been pondering this myself independently. I had not specifically been thinking of a Centurion though. And I just happen to have a Centurion's helmet as well... With regards to that, I don't mind as long as it is in keeping with the timeline. Unless you want this for yourself then?
All: And so yes to the gun-firing AttackA and a gladius-weilding AttackB?
Taking it a step further then... it seems to me that if the javelin was in use amongst the Legionaires that we are not looking at much of a change in tactical policy with the Romans then (aside from the first row/second row alteration). I mean, an arquebus is sort of just a better javelin. What kind of responses do you think might have resulted from the enemies of Rome? Or perhaps more directly, what responses does this timeline give, if any? [I'm already thinking ahead to possible units for the other civilizations in this scenario] So post concept work!
EDIT: Also! Civ-specific colors? Your suggestions?
Xen - First of all, somewhat of a twist of irony that javelins would be revered while archers dismissed, hehe. Okay then, you've made a good case.
Secondly, with regards to making a pistol-weilding Centurion, I had actually been pondering this myself independently. I had not specifically been thinking of a Centurion though. And I just happen to have a Centurion's helmet as well...
With regards to that, I don't mind as long as it is in keeping with the timeline. Unless you want this for yourself then? All: And so yes to the gun-firing AttackA and a gladius-weilding AttackB?
Taking it a step further then... it seems to me that if the javelin was in use amongst the Legionaires that we are not looking at much of a change in tactical policy with the Romans then (aside from the first row/second row alteration). I mean, an arquebus is sort of just a better javelin. What kind of responses do you think might have resulted from the enemies of Rome? Or perhaps more directly, what responses does this timeline give, if any? [I'm already thinking ahead to possible units for the other civilizations in this scenario
] So post concept work!EDIT: Also! Civ-specific colors? Your suggestions?
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Here's the next preview. I've lengthened the tunic and decreased the size of the shoulder plating slightly.
One of the hardest things is going to be the notch in the shield... Ah how I wish for boolean in Poser... *sigh*
Thorgrimm
Senior Elder
Here is some more info i dug up.
For pilum practice the Centurions emphasize rate of fire over accuracy since the Roman pilum is not really accurate over 50 yards. A decent soldier is expected to fire 3 volleys in one minute, even under combat conditions. In the offensive, the primary goal of Roman battle tactics is to break the enemy's resolve and compel him to flee. to accomplish this generals begin with a barrage by the Tormentum intended to demoralize and soften up the other side. When the tormenta are too hot to continue firing, the legionaires who are already in formation begin a deliberate, but silent advance. This is meant to unnerve the enemy in sharp contrast to the deafening onslaught of the tormenta. Once within 50 yards the legionaires halt, kneel and volley with pilum fire until the enemy charges or flees. The legionaires then unsheathe their gladii and close to attack hand to hand, exposing any weakness in the line in order to force it to retreat. At the same time the Equites charge into the fray. A nation that does not have gunpowder would be hopelessly outclassed with those steady and unrelenting tactics if the Imperial Legions had gunpowder weapons. The best way to survive is to stay out of pilum range as the tormentum can still hit but not very accurate at long range, aka mobile archers and cav, ala the Parthians or Persians
For pilum practice the Centurions emphasize rate of fire over accuracy since the Roman pilum is not really accurate over 50 yards. A decent soldier is expected to fire 3 volleys in one minute, even under combat conditions. In the offensive, the primary goal of Roman battle tactics is to break the enemy's resolve and compel him to flee. to accomplish this generals begin with a barrage by the Tormentum intended to demoralize and soften up the other side. When the tormenta are too hot to continue firing, the legionaires who are already in formation begin a deliberate, but silent advance. This is meant to unnerve the enemy in sharp contrast to the deafening onslaught of the tormenta. Once within 50 yards the legionaires halt, kneel and volley with pilum fire until the enemy charges or flees. The legionaires then unsheathe their gladii and close to attack hand to hand, exposing any weakness in the line in order to force it to retreat. At the same time the Equites charge into the fray. A nation that does not have gunpowder would be hopelessly outclassed with those steady and unrelenting tactics if the Imperial Legions had gunpowder weapons. The best way to survive is to stay out of pilum range as the tormentum can still hit but not very accurate at long range, aka mobile archers and cav, ala the Parthians or Persians
Kinboat
Conan the Librarian
Ok here is the blunderbuss type gun model I came up with. Obviously it's not too detailed. I changed the trigger into a lever and stock into a thinner look, more like a crossbow. I did this mostly to give it a more ancient look. Plus from the picture on the first page I imagine them to be resting the gun on the shield and bracing the end on their hip instead of against their shoulders... less accurate but in volleys it doesn't make much difference.
I've also done a hand pose for Michael to grip it. This should be put into a folder in the Hands library.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Blunderbuss.zip
I've also done a hand pose for Michael to grip it. This should be put into a folder in the Hands library.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Blunderbuss.zip
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Awesome! Thanks!
@Kinboat- as I am unable to see the download I do not know if you have done this...but is there any chance of you making the pistol as well?- I can get a better picture uif you need it (its the only "better" picture that exists on the website where the insperational art for this comes from...
Kinboat
Conan the Librarian
I actually made a wheel-lock pistol for my Man-at-Arms unit so I suppose I could just zip that up and post it.
