[RD] The Obama Legacy

[onejayhawk]

Legacy articles are coming hot and heavy. Another one blaming Obama fo the wreckage of the Democratic party.
http://nypost.com/2016/12/25/obamas-legacy-is-a-devastated-democratic-party/

This is cute and too accurate for comfort:

 

[Agent327]

Oddly, a president has better things to do than lead or wreck a party. Of course, this used to be the case until a couple of weeks from now.

 

[onejayhawk]

Oddly, a president has better things to do than lead or wreck a party. Of course, this used to be the case until a couple of weeks from now.

Like foreign policy?

I suppose train-wrecks are exciting, not to mention dangerous to by-standers.

J

 

[JollyRoger]

At least he didn't pull a W.

 

[onejayhawk]

At least he didn't pull a W.

That would be an improvement. This UN fiasco is just another in a long line of blunders.

W left a workable mid-East situation. Obama hasn't. It's a low bar but Obama limbo-ed it with room to spare.

J

 

[AdrienIer]

Obama's terms are proof that W did not leave a workable middle east situation

 

[JollyRoger]

I guess Obama should have spent blood and treasure like W did.

 

[Agent327]

That would be an improvement. This UN fiasco is just another in a long line of blunders.

W left a workable mid-East situation. Obama hasn't. It's a low bar but Obama limbo-ed it with room to spare.

That's basically the Trump narrative. Doesn't quite fit the actual record. Bush Jr didn't leave 'a workable mid-East situation'. He messed up Iraq, allowing both al Qaeda and IS to erupt there, which subsequently spilled over into Syria. Neither of these situations is attributable to the Obama administrations. A balanced budget is.

I'm not sure what you mean by the UN fiasco? Bush having Powell lie in public to invade Iraq?

 

[onejayhawk]

Obama's terms are proof that W did not leave a workable middle east situation

If by terms you mean the last eight years, not so. The BOA pulled out of Iraq even though they had been warned repeatedly that something like ISIS would move into the vacuum. GW Bush did it on national TV in 2007. ISIS is Obama's legacy, not Bush's in any part.

That's basically the Trump narrative. Doesn't quite fit the actual record. Bush Jr didn't leave 'a workable mid-East situation'. He messed up Iraq, allowing both al Qaeda and IS to erupt there, which subsequently spilled over into Syria. Neither of these situations is attributable to the Obama administrations. A balanced budget is.

I'm not sure what you mean by the UN fiasco? Bush having Powell lie in public to invade Iraq?

Some of what Trump said made sense. Who knew?

Don't try to put ISIS on Bush. The situation was workable because ISIS could grow up in the situation Bush turned over. ISIS was not only foreseeable but foreseen and appropriate steps were taken. Obama had to overturn that, which he did.

The UN fiasco was this week.

What balanced budget? Record deficits. Even given a pass for 2009 and 2010, it's a sorry record.

J

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I think for everyone but Israel is was more of an UN fiesta

 

[onejayhawk]

I think for everyone but Israel is was more of an UN fiesta

You say that like it isn't a bad thing.

J

 

[yung.carl.jung]

You say that like it isn't a bad thing.

J

Because opinions wildly differ? I personally think settlements in the west bank should have been heavily sanctioned years ago..

 

[AdrienIer]

The UN resolution is too little too late but it's the first time a US president allows something to happen in decades so it partly redeems the rest of his terms

 

[EnglishEdward]

It is nice to see a US President that does NOT vote as ordered by Israel.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If by terms you mean the last eight years, not so. The BOA pulled out of Iraq even though they had been warned repeatedly that something like ISIS would move into the vacuum. GW Bush did it on national TV in 2007. ISIS is Obama's legacy, not Bush's in any part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.–Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement

The U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. combat forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011

Reading on ...

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/08/bush-clinton-play-blame-game-in-iraq/

It seems to be that both presidents had to deal with Maliki’s reluctance on troops in Iraq.

 

[metalhead]

J still believes the Iraq war was a good idea (though will never say why), so his world view basically requires him to blame the catastrophe on Obama, somehow. You never quite get used to it.

 

[metalhead]

Also, don't let the idiots fool you - Obama is leaving Trump a strong economy. By some measures, one of the two or three strongest economies a president has ever inherited. There is no reasonable metric by which one can claim Obama did a bad job on the economy, excepting perhaps on inequality. And that isn't a problem of his own making, though he did little to try to tackle it.

Inflation is low, the deficit is low, employment is nearing full, wages are finally going up, and growth is comparatively very high. The markets are even at record highs. Not sure what there is not to like about the state of the economy. It's remarkably healthy considering the stagnation across the globe.

 

[onejayhawk]

J still believes the Iraq war was a good idea (though will never say why), so his world view basically requires him to blame the catastrophe on Obama, somehow. You never quite get used to it.

This partly true. At worst it was a mitigated harm. Pulling out as we did negated pretty much all of the value.

The pull out was staged and there were checks at every step. Rather than follow the plan and heed the warning signs, we just left. It created a vacuum which spawned ISIS. If we had been pulled back but not out, there would have been troops in place if necessary. More importantly, control of the hardware would have been assured.

Also, don't let the idiots fool you - Obama is leaving Trump a strong economy. By some measures, one of the two or three strongest economies a president has ever inherited. There is no reasonable metric by which one can claim Obama did a bad job on the economy, excepting perhaps on inequality. And that isn't a problem of his own making, though he did little to try to tackle it.

Inflation is low, the deficit is low, employment is nearing full, wages are finally going up, and growth is comparatively very high. The markets are even at record highs. Not sure what there is not to like about the state of the economy. It's remarkably healthy considering the stagnation across the globe.

This is an overstatement. It would be better to say that it is not a weak economy. Also, bad economies tend to coincide with a change in Presidents. Reagan had a mess that rivals 2009. Bush had a smaller one. GHW Bush had a good economy. This is not nearly as good as that.

J

 

[metalhead]

We had no right to just "stay." That had to be negotiated with the Iraqi authority. They were quite clear about not renegotiating the SOFA to allow U.S. forces to stay in the numbers we would have needed to stem the rise of ISIS. Staying was not really on the table. Also, there is no conceivable condition under which an indefinite U.S. occupation of Iraq is to our benefit, so I'm not really sure how you expect it ever would have worked out differently.

Re: the economy - which indicators are not strong?

 

[onejayhawk]

It was negotiated. The agreement has been cited.

I did not say that the indicators are poor. I said that 1988 was much better.

J