The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part Four: The Genesis of Ire!

[warpus]

Could a catastrophe such as a global flood erode huge quantities of sediment and deposit them elsewhere, and could organisms be buried quickly and then fossilized? Why or why not?

The results of a global flood have been addressed by other posters; I'd like to address the question of a global flood instead.

How would such a thing be possible? Outline the scenario please.

The only thing i can think of is a huge meteor striking one of the oceans and sending giant tsunamis across the globe.. but that wouldn't really be a flood per se - and I'd guess that an asteroid big enough (ie. the result of which would send tsunamis across the entire globe.) would do much more than just soak everything with water.

 

[bgast1]

How would such a thing be possible? Outline the scenario please.

I don't know the mechanics of it. At this point I am just asking questions, and seeking answers, whatever conclusions I draw, I will probably let you know.

Hopefully, some more of you all will chime in.

 

[Samson]

Could a catastrophe such as a global flood erode huge quantities of sediment and deposit them elsewhere

I am not able to quote numbers, but I think you need to clarify what you mean by "huge quantities" and how big a global flood is. If you mean huge as in the total amount of fosil bearing or sedamentary rock, and a global flood would involve say all the water on earth at the moment falling from the sky in 40 days and then running to lowest point at that time, I reakon you would need each 1 Kg of water to carry more than 1 Kg of rock, and I suspect that is imposible.

 

[carlosMM]

Could a catastrophe such as a global flood erode huge quantities of sediment

Yes.

and deposit them elsewhere,

Yes.

and could organisms be buried quickly and then fossilized?

Yes.


The catch is that from these three facts there is no viable link to the claims that
a) a global flood can happen (it cannot)
b) a global flood ever did happen
c) all (or: a majority of) fossils were created by it.

You question in the context of evolution and creationism is a bit like asking:
Could a hawk choke to death on a mouse, fall from the tree and kill a hamster which then gets swallowed by a snake that again chokes on it and dying slithers into a mole burrow?

In theory, yes, but for the practical case of explaining why the snake with the hamster in its stomach is dead, the theory is nto really helpful, besides the point that the specifi version of catastrophe you chose is impossible.

 

[ironduck]

Even assuming that somehow there is a global flood that covers everything for a year and then disappears again and we ignore any objections regarding evidence... there's a big honkin' problem:

Earth is now almost completely void of life. There are no kangaroos in Australia. There are no polar bears in Greenland. There are no orchids in Brazil. There are no parrot fish in the Red Sea. There is no reindeer lichen in Sweden.

There's only mud and saltish water, some surviving bacteria and perhaps a few extremely tough marine creatures, worms that found cover somewhere, tardigrades..

 

[bgast1]

Thanks everyone for your answers. I need to think them through now.

But CarlosMM, please be so kind to explain to me why such a global flood could not happen. If you have already explained it, then humor me, please do it again.

 

[Xanikk999]

Thanks everyone for your answers. I need to think them through now.

But CarlosMM, please be so kind to explain to me why such a global flood could not happen. If you have already explained it, then humor me, please do it again.

Why do you have to beileve in a made up story thats obviously a myth. Noahs Arc is a myth no different then any greek or norse myth.

Not only is it improbable it makes no sense.

Cant you realize these things were made up as a way to explain the world when science at the time could not. People were superstitious and theres no need to be so today.

 

[nc-1701]

Thanks everyone for your answers. I need to think them through now.

But CarlosMM, please be so kind to explain to me why such a global flood could not happen. If you have already explained it, then humor me, please do it again.

WATER it doesn't come from nowhere ya know. There is no where near enough ater in the world for such a flood even if all the icecaps melted We'ed get maybe 200' of water heck my house would'nt even be under water. Then theres the case of how does the water go away...

Due to the conservation of energy law we cannot sponanesly create and destroy matter so no global flood.

 

[nc-1701]

Why do you have to beileve in a made up story thats obviously a myth. Noahs Arc is a myth no different then any greek or norse myth.

Not only is it improbable it makes no sense.

Cant you realize these things were made up as a way to explain the world when science at the time could not. People were superstitious and theres no need to be so today.

Don't blast him he is actualy asking questions and considering. Unfortunatly that is all we can ask of him or other supporters of creationism. Its up to them to see the light all we can do is help.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yeah, anyways there's nothing wrong with being a myth. Some of my favorite stories, many of which I accept as fact, could be properly called myths.

The real problem, of course, is that to flood the earth completely would (obviously) require more water than was then present. Just as you can't get a cup full to the brim without adding water. So where did that water come from? And also, since it is clearly no longer around, where did it go?

 

[ironduck]

I don't understand why you think that's the biggest problem. If god wanted to he could just create it and do away with it again. The problem is a) the evidence and b) according to the flood story Noah brought the animals along so they could once again spread across the world post flood. That is physically impossible.

 

[Xanikk999]

I don't understand why you think that's the biggest problem. If god wanted to he could just create it and do away with it again. The problem is a) the evidence and b) according to the flood story Noah brought the animals along so they could once again spread across the world post flood. That is physically impossible.

Not to mention they only brought a female and a male of each species.

If that really happened everyone would be so inbreed by now we would all be extremely retarted or would have died out.

 

[sanabas]

But CarlosMM, please be so kind to explain to me why such a global flood could not happen. If you have already explained it, then humor me, please do it again.

There's not enough water/the earth isn't uniform enough. Make the land much, much flatter, and then there's enough water for a worldwide flood. But if there was a worldwide flood, you need to explain either the radical restructuring of the land afterwards, or the disappearance of quite a lot of water.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

And of course, to say "it was a miracle, God hid the evidence" or whatever, whatever its validity as a theological position (ie if you can believe God would do that) it doesn't fly scientifically - to go that route, you could say God did anything and hid the evidence (like create the earth last week).

 

[Xanikk999]

And of course, to say "it was a miracle, God hid the evidence" or whatever, whatever its validity as a theological position (ie if you can believe God would do that) it doesn't fly scientifically - to go that route, you could say God did anything and hid the evidence (like create the earth last week).

Not to mention for some reason god doesnt seem to intervene at all in recorded history.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

And a question for carlosMM - I know yuo have said you are a paleontologist. Where are you (ie a university or what), and waht do you study? Do you have a specific class, or epoch, or what? Just curious - if not for my lack of interest in math leading me to shy away from science, I might have been a paleontologist.

 

[carlosMM]

Thanks everyone for your answers. I need to think them through now.

But CarlosMM, please be so kind to explain to me why such a global flood could not happen. If you have already explained it, then humor me, please do it again.

OK, first, where did the water come from? If we believe the bible, there was land, and lots of it, before the flood. And oceans (salt water). And rivers and lakes. So, the bible says 'it rained' - that water must have come from somewhere, must have eiter been clouds (but the athmosphere can't hold enough of them to cover all earth), or must have been in surface reserviors, constantly evaporating to add new clouds as the rain falls. But where?

Also, where did it go? There's no place for it to go, unless you construct silly theories of huge underground reserviors, whcih doesn't hold as then the ground would never have been stable before and still would not be afterwards.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Gen. 1 tells us there was (is?) a reservoir of water above the firmament ...

I've posted this piece several times before, but among other things it gives a rather graphical demonstration of why the fossil record could not have been laid down during a single year.

 

[bgast1]

At this point, I was attempting to address only whether it was possible for the fossils to have formed quickly, if such a global flood could have taken place. Not whether it did or not. Again I am not a scientist, don't point me to some link, or read some book. Exactly how are fossils formed, to the best of our knowledge

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, fossil formation isn't what tells us the Flood didn't take place, if that's what you mean. Fossil placement, on the other hand, does.