The OpenDev/Preview Thread

[Elhoim]

I have not tested this myself, but are you guaranteed to lose your ship if it spends more than one turn "lost at sea"? I would certainly prefer for there to be a chance that the ship flounders, but it would be nice if there was a possibility that you could make it to distant lands, provided you are persistent enough/willing to invest in multiple "expeditions"

Here is how it works:

- You end your turn at an ocean tile, your army is "lost at sea".
- If it ends next turn in an ocean tile, is destroyed. If you manage to reach a shore, it's safe.
- The Cog can survive for one turn more. Basically, it loses half its health, then it's destroyed. So you can explore more.

So with ancient vessels you can venture in the sea, and then you have a choice to come back or push ahead in hopes of reaching a shore. With the Cog, you can push ahead two times. Extra moves on ships from wonders or events can certainly help with the exploration. Works quite fine, IMO. There's already an element of "chance" in the unknown direction you are heading, so no need to add one on the ship that could unbalance things quite a bit.

 

[mitsho]

Can't say I had the opportunity to try it out, just wanted to add that for me, gameplay trumps realism here. If you have one coastal tile hugging the continent at all time, it can get boring. And it may also hinder movement (see that other game) which is precisely what didn't happen. The open sea should offer freedom. Freedom to explore, trade and conquer; and far faster mobility than on land. If it can simulate that (unlike that other game), I'm happy.

 

[8housesofelixir]

If you have one coastal tile hugging the continent at all time, it can get boring. And it may also hinder movement (see that other game) which is precisely what didn't happen.

I personally failed to see how having death zones for your ships on the direction of exploration does not hinder movement and/or mobility.

 

[Atlas627]

It is only a death zone if you stay in it for more than one turn? So it is hindrance enough that you could, say, defend that location, but not enough to prevent exploration? It is hindrance enough to slow you down a turn, but not to block the space from all travel? It is hindrance enough to make you reposition your harbor, instead of it being optimal to space them out the exact same way every game?

 

[mitsho]

I personally failed to see how having death zones for your ships on the direction of exploration does not hinder movement and/or mobility.

You can always turn back

But in general - if we keep the traditional movement rules for ships - I'm all for making the sea terrain more varied. Which means more shallow coastal tiles. Hmm, I really have to get around to playing it to see how sea battles work

 

[8housesofelixir]

But in general - if we keep the traditional movement rules for ships - I'm all for making the sea terrain more varied. Which means more shallow coastal tiles.

That's why I also offered an art style argument in one of my replies. If the "coastal deep ocean" tiles looks like costal tiles with severe sea conditions instead of simply deep blue water, I can happily accept that.

It is only a death zone if you stay in it for more than one turn? So it is hindrance enough that you could, say, defend that location, but not enough to prevent exploration? It is hindrance enough to slow you down a turn, but not to block the space from all travel?

Some of the deep water "gaps" are larger than 1 tile - the usual size of them is around 1 to 3 tiles long along the coast - enough to kill your embarked troops.

 

[Atlas627]

1-3 tiles is not enough to kill embarked troops. They move 2 per turn, and they need to start AND end the turn in ocean to sink.

That being said, being able to kill embarked troops but not ships is exactly the amount of hindrance that I think results in interesting gameplay.

As for the art, I don't mind if they make the dangerous shallow water look different from the ocean, but still call it ocean. Different names for the same gameplay effects is annoying though.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As @8housesofelixer said, a different aesthetic might make it easier to accept: something like the Tsunami Waves Mod for Civ VI, with crashing waves and foam leaping up the cliffs along the shore - indicating a Bad Place to take your ship and a Really Bad place to leave it for any length of time!

The whole discussion, though, reminds me of Dr Samuel Johnson's comment about being in the (Royal) Navy:

"Just like being in prison, with the added chance of being drowned."

- which appears to sum up Humankind's naval movement, IMHO.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Observed an interesting AI move in Lucy Opendev today.

I occupied the northern part of the starting continent, and the three neighboring AIs crammed in the central and southern part. One AI was very slow in Fame gathering, when most of the AIs entered Classical, she was still Ancient Harappans, and most of her territories are outposts, not cities. Then one of her neighbors entered Classical and chose Rome.

Rome is an culture of Expansionist trait - it can instantly purchase others' non-city territories. The Roman AI quickly purchased a large portion of the Harappan territories - since the Harappans had many outposts but few cities - which triggered the Harappans to declare war to him; Rome then launched an assault to the Harappan capital and swiftly took it. When I realized what happened, the whole Harappan territory only had one outpost left.

To sum up: AI do know how to use their designed trick, and an early Expansionist can easily mess up others' territories.



In addition, I also encountered a possible bug, one of the AIs (Goths) instantly assimilated an Independent City even though they were not the patron; in fact their name were not even on the patronage bar, but one turn later the city belonged to them.

 

[mitsho]

Well, that's both good news! The Bugs show why they need a few months more and that the AI knows how to use what they were given is just impressive - again compared to that other game .

 

[8housesofelixir]

Rome is an culture of Expansionist trait - it can instantly purchase others' non-city territories. The Roman AI quickly purchased a large portion of the Harappan territories - since the Harappans had many outposts but few cities - which triggered the Harappans to declare war to him; Rome then launched an assault to the Harappan capital and swiftly took it. When I realized what happened, the whole Harappan territory only had one outpost left.

An update about this aggressive Rome from the previous post:

The game enters early modern, and this Rome went with Rome-Teutons-Ottomans, full Expansionist mode. About 3/4 of the starting continent now belong to the Ottomans, with me the Joseon holding the last 1/4. The two other AIs, Harappans-Celt and Goth-Aztecs, both only have one piece of territory left. The turn I write this post down the Ottomans are besieging the Aztec capital.

Deeply impressed by the level of dynamic here.



Also, another possible bug: It seems that most of AIs army constitute of only 1-2 units instead of full 4-5 units. Only Independent People will spawn a 5 unit army. I am sure this is not the case in the past, I have encountered full 4 units army in Stadia Opendev.

 

[TreVor_ish]

An update about this aggressive Rome from the previous post:

The game enters early modern, and this Rome went with Rome-Teutons-Ottomans, full Expansionist mode. About 3/4 of the starting continent now belong to the Ottomans, with me the Joseon holding the last 1/4. The two other AIs, Harappans-Celt and Goth-Aztecs, both only have one piece of territory left. The turn I write this post down the Ottomans are besieging the Aztec capital.

Deeply impressed by the level of dynamic here.



Also, another possible bug: It seems that most of AIs army constitute of only 1-2 units instead of full 4-5 units. Only Independent People will spawn a 5 unit army. I am sure this is not the case in the past, I have encountered full 4 units army in Stadia Opendev.

I've already lost 2 cities to full 5-6 armies so it does happen, however I did stumble upon a situation, when Battle froze on AI turn and could not proceed further. Save reload did the trick.

 

[Siptah]

Anyone else had the feeling that the AI is really bad because the player lead by a huge amount of fame at the emerging of the classical era? The AI seems to be able to catch up (and more) quite well afterwards though. Anyone already realized how the AI is so good in the mid game? Is it just their bonuses or is there a kind of optimal play with certain amount of cities or something similar that I‘m not getting yet?
Is there a way to see which stars they got and not just the total number?

 

[TreVor_ish]

Putting clusters of /food/gold/production seems like the best idea (for now it works). City wise, You can have an entire continent attached to one city - i mean...that is a lot of ground. I managed to build 3 on most of the continent which already is a lot. I would love to be able to get more land in CIV that I could build on (and use those yields). Battles are also quite good, and the ability to have an army of more than 1 unit is amazing, adding the deployment phase was also a brilliant idea.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

I dint win my first game, the game din't have a final score tally but I'm pretty sure I was 3rd at the end. (Normal difficulty)

I had some fun wars but I dint even meet the winner as I was kind of trapped by unfriendly neighbours I had enough land to have 4 cities with 1-2 extensions each but I got a bit stuck.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Anyone else had the feeling that the AI is really bad because the player lead by a huge amount of fame at the emerging of the classical era?

I genuinely think it depends on the affinity traits. Playing a Merchant in Ancient and Classical is not easy, since you need to develop your luxury deposits to gain money from trade in order to gain Fame, which takes a lot of time and AI's cooperation. But playing a Builder simply means spamming your EQ and other quarters, since there isn't any cap on quarter (quarter cost stability but stability is very easy to manage).

If the way your affinity gain Fame is very straightforward - esp. Agrarians, Builders, and Scientists; I don't count Militarist here for you need to find someone else to fight - you can easily pull off a lead.

Also, currently it is far too easy for players to pull off a lead in the Neolithic Era.

Anyone already realized how the AI is so good in the mid game? Is it just their bonuses or is there a kind of optimal play with certain amount of cities or something similar that I‘m not getting yet?

IMHO it is probably because, beginning from Medieval Era, the whole pacing of yields and outputs become very off. Every city of mine can one turn everything, including population, in the Medieval Era; and I'm not playing as an Agrarian or Builder.

I bet AI can one turn every thing as well - since AI love to spam quarters for more yields - therefore making them gathering Fame more easier.

 

[CivLuvah]

An update from my issue:

I've finally fixed it! The issue seems to be the registry.xml and the save files from the previous OpenDev at Steam, the very first one. It's here in this post from the Games2Gether forums. It's the very first issue described by Cat-O-Nine:
https://www.games2gether.com/amplit...threads/37980-known-issues?page=1#post-307797

I have a lot of catching up to do! Time to finally play!!!

 

[FinalDoomsday]

yeah I find merchant stars very difficult to get as the Ghanians they even have a great quarter that gives more money based on districs around it. I was getting builder and scientist stars before I was getting merchant, infact I did not even get a single merchant star in the era despite having more money than I knew what to do with haha.

 

[mitsho]

So I got to play one game: Went Egyptians - Greeks - Byzantines - Dutch for a kind of "historical route" and really enjoyed it. I dominated my home continent though culturally and only had a few wars. The AI probably could have attacked me early on when I was weak, but afterwards, It was smooth sailing. Right from the start I had border skirmishes with what later would become the Olmces, and I dominated them. But before I could vassalize them in the end, my ally the Babylonians did and thus created a kind of thorn in my side. Nasty. But I found it weird that the Babylonians stayed themselves for a long time - I kinda forgot about transcending A few observations:

- The neolithic age seemed really short. I could have done with a few more turns there. I can't believe I am saying this but I am probably going to play Humankind on slower speeds and one game over several sessions. (and yes, the late classical era could be nice)
- The clothing changes by the avatars are nice. Really atmospheric, but they probably should give them names instead of numbers I will get sick of the era transition videos though really soon
- Outposts definitely need names, otherwise the list is just confusing.
- I had a hard time understanding certain systems. I totally forgot about stability for some time - and I don't really get how the population counters work (2/18 means I could have 18 population, but only have two? so are my districts just empty ghost towns?).
- For example: The unlock conditions of the civics are not told. So I don't know what and why I am missing out - unless I play a few games. And the names of the four scales should show up as highlights in the civic stream. I think it's intentional to not explain everything, but I'm not sure how well that will sit with every player.
- Also: War! I got really angry suddenly when I lost La Venta when the Olmecs became a Vassal to the Babylonians. These kinds of things need better explanations in game. (I get angry about the system, but it makes sense and it is flavourful, so that is alright and challenging!)
- Also: Faith! I didn't really pursue it, and I think there were no tips included yet which made it kind of a random game for me.
- Since the cities are so big, I'd be really nice if each infrastructure would show you what it'd would give you. I'm not going to count the number of rivertiles in my city, so I'm always going to play sub-optimally.
- Ships should be able to found outposts! That happened all the time and it makes sense gameplay-wise. The naval civs should be able to thrive and found colonies far away (Phoenicians f.e.) early on. also they should be able to violate foreign waters to pass through. Minor Grievances - sure - but I feel it's bad if I get stuck because of that and deep sea. Also: auto-explore on ships should avoid "lost on sea". If I do that, I want to be sure it doesn't sink, since otherwise I can't use the option.
- My scout got stuck once when he couldn't be expelled from a territory when the borders closed. Seems like a bug but I couldn't move him and he lost health all the time.
- Also regarding Grievances: It was way to easy to get an outpost next to my capital from the
- There seemed to be way fewer independent people around than in the last open dev. But the ones that did, spawned right the turn my unit reached the place to put an outpost down... So I had to kill them - and then another player (the above La Venta) put one down. Angering, but again: good storytelling.
- not all islands should have independent people though.

Wow, my short list got kinda long. Well...

 

[FinalDoomsday]

It was intially weird that I could have a vast city with just 2 population but I guess it represents surplus population that you can manage. I was regullary just using it for soldiers though!