The Panopticon Wonder Discussion Thread

Do you like the idea of the Panopticon being in VP?

  • It's a great idea

    Votes: 20 25.3%

  • It's fine

    Votes: 9 11.4%

  • I don't care

    Votes: 9 11.4%

  • I don't like it; I think the CV wonder should be something else

    Votes: 29 36.7%

  • I don't like it; I think CV shouldn't even have a wonder

    Votes: 12 15.2%
  • Total voters
    79
Neat, okay, so this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Can you move this to another venue, or just otherwise stop talking about this?
 
pineappledan said:
Neat, okay, so this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Can you move this to another venue, or just otherwise stop talking about this?
Click to expand...
It's a little related, just like you don't like to get a panopticon wonder in culture victory. I don't like the idea of "Social Credit System" in Order. Palace of Soviets is a lot more neutral.

wobuffet said:
Is @Gazebo open to having 3 different endcap Cultural Victory projects, one for each Ideology? That seems the most interesting and the most fun solution to me.
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Yeah, and that's why we're discussing about that, we have tree polls right now
https://www.strawpoll.me/15621678/r
https://www.strawpoll.me/15621671/r
https://www.strawpoll.me/15621658/r
 
pineappledan said:
Neat, okay, so this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Can you move this to another venue, or just otherwise stop talking about this?
Click to expand...
TY if I want politics I'll go to twitter.
OTH I feel like a wonder should not be some idea but something much more tangible, after all you build it with production.
 
Noob Fanboy said:
It's a little related, just like you don't like to get a panopticon wonder in culture victory. I don't like the idea of "Social Credit System" in Order. Palace of Soviets is a lot more neutral.
Click to expand...
My two cents on that is I'm a bit queezy about both the panopticon and the social credit system for reasons I have gone into great detail about previously. the SCS is more or less a real-world panopticon, but using the Flesh Engine as its main driver.

Of course, if people want one or the other then I don't get to decide, but I certainly don't think the game should have both. The two are mutually indistinguishable.

@Tekamthi made a persuasive argument for a Utopia/Commonwealth/Panopticon trinity here. While certainly meritorious, I ultimately side with you, @ScooterDWiebels. The game is at its best when you are actually putting production towards tangible things.

Some people have suggested that the wonders should each have special abilities to them to make them more than palette swaps of each other. I don't really see much point in that. This wonder is going to end the game. If you're building it then you have all but won, and you won't get to enjoy any hypothetical benefit that the wonder might provide. If they were each going to give a unique bonus while being constructed, then that would require G to do entirely new coding for bonuses during production of something, and I don't think that's reasonable.

I think the real best solution would be to have separate splash screens for the victory/wonder completion.

Another nice thing is that The Palace of the Soviets and EPCOT already exist as wonders on the Civ 5 Workshop, with splash screens and everything. If those modders consent to have their work added to VP, then we would just need to make art for Germania/whatever
 
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ScooterDWiebels said:
TY if I want politics I'll go to twitter.
OTH I feel like a wonder should not be some idea but something much more tangible, after all you build it with production.
Click to expand...
What is culture process for 500? :p

Also while it's nice to see it's not always me getting dragged into long political rants no one wants, this really isn't the forum for that.

It does seem to confirm that I doubt we'll reach a consensus on these wonders. I would rather keep them vague, but honestly it's not that important to me given that I'll be cracking heads as per usual regardless.
pineappledan said:
I think the real best solution would be to have separate splash screens for the victory/wonder completion.
Click to expand...
OMG that would be super cool tho.
 
pineappledan said:
My two cents on that is I'm a bit queezy about both the panopticon and the social credit system for reasons I have gone into great detail about previously. the SCS is more or less a real-world panopticon, but using the Flesh Engine as its main driver.

Of course, if people want one or the other then I don't get to decide, but I certainly don't think the game should have both. The two are mutually indistinguishable.
Click to expand...

:'), i love pineapple

pineappledan said:
Another nice thing is that The Palace of the Soviets and EPCOT already exist as wonders on the Civ 5 Workshop, with splash screens and everything. If those modders consent to have their work added to VP, then we would just need to make art for Germania/whatever
Click to expand...

About this, i remember wall street in Civ 4 too. We can use either epcot or wall street for freedom options
 
civplayer33 said:
Yeah and those black hooded, hammer and sickle flag-waving idiots shouting things like "no borders, no nations" are clearly just rich kids of bankers trying to have some fun...
Click to expand...

And I can't believe you all are still trying to make the game teach some morals. Just avoid the whole crap by using something generic, I say.

For the political discussion:
There's a general misconception about Nationalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, People dictatorship, Globalisation and Neo-liberalism. You try to reduce so many things into two: left and right. This is too simplistic.
Basically left wings claims to make policies for the vulnerable, the weak parts of the society, since the majorities and the strong don't need to be defended, even when some of those policies have the opposite effect. Rigth wings claims to make policies for those who contribute more to society so they can keep contributing, even when some of those policies only produce inequalities and inefficiencies.

But real politics are mostly designed around some of these themes:
- Socialism - Capitalism (what social classes are favored by policies, what you usually think it's left and right)
- Internationalism - Nationalism (if foreign people is allowed in the country, can they keep their culture or must convert?)
- Liberalism - Protectionism (international trading is encouraged or taxed?)
- Democracy - Autocracy (who decides who rules?)
- Syncretism - Supremacism (one culture/race dominates, are they all equal or do they mix together?)
- Non-denominational - Denominational (is there a national religion? are other religions allowed?)

Real political parties don't choose all left or all right. And they are not binary policies, there are many scales of grey between Democracy and Autocracy (or Monarchy), for example. Political parties cherry pick depending on the interest of the people that joins the party, even when actual policies of those parties go against the real interests of the people that choose them.
For example, a party might be in favor of unions, but against the allowance to foreigners, that would make them national-socialists (is this rigth or left winged?). Fascism is just radical nationalism mixed with autocracy (clearly right winded).

Finally, we call conservatives those who desire that policies don't change ever, probably because those policies were benefitial to them in the past and they still are. Progressists those who want to make small changes to adapt to new circumstances, probably because current policies don't benefit them or are disliked, but they fear what big changes may provoke. Revolutionaries those who want to make big changes, no matter the cost, even civil war. And reactionaries those who wish to return to the good old times when their families ruled and 'everybody new their place'.


So, in the case above, who can ask for a removal borders policy? Internationalists. Any party that agrees with it, be it left or right, may be in favor. Both bankers and ecohippies may agree on having one single big world-wide nation.
 
I too wonder how to make the three different wonders for three different ideologies create an actual game play mechanic that is meaningful before victory is reached. Linking them to different scarce resources during construction is kind of boring- you just pick the one that is easiest for your current game. Where I see the potential in having three different CV victory wonders would be in them working against each other as they are being built. Maybe even in a rock/paper/scissors kind of way. So if it is announced that an AI civ is currently building the freedom CV wonder, and you start building the autocracy wonder you somehow pull back their progress as yours progresses. In this way they wouldn't be buildings only with fixed hammer costs or conditions. Instead they might be more like projects where one civ has to reach a % of total world contribution to all CV project to win (maybe 50%). This would allow any sufficiently advanced civ to push back on another civ approaching a cultural victory, but at the cost of sacrificing production or culture points that they would otherwise be using for their own victory. That makes an interesting decision for the player, and allows other civs to fight back against approaching culture victories other than by conquest. Another option would be that when you can select a policy or ideology you have the option of putting those points toward the CV project instead. Another interesting choice to advance your own policies or prevent another civ from reaching the CV threshold %.
 
Moi Magnus said:
Lets agree on that. If you do wish to continue this debate, please use a more appropriate platform (and just posting a link there if you really want to), or use personnal messages.

While discussing one year ago about renaming Freedom/Order/Authocracy to something more precise, we arrived to the conclusion that keeping the vague names from Firaxis was probably the better (since no other consensus was reached). I have the feeling that we will reach the same problem here if we try to "choose an utopy" for each ideology.

Also, the way I've understood civ's cultural victory was not "global assimilation of every culture into one culture". For me, if real life was a game of Civ 5, the USA would have won the cultural victory around the end of the cold war, and we are curently in the "just one more turn".
(And I don't consider the culture of my country "assimilated" by the USA, just influenced. "We buy your jeans and listen your musics", as the loosing leader say when you influence them)
Click to expand...

Yeah with these things it's always gonna be hard to reach a consensus; in the end it's gonna have to be @Gazebo who decides and if we can get some good poll results to support it, all the better (unfortunately so far the opinions seem pretty split in the polls).
As for the US having won CV: I don't think countries with huge numbers of people such as India or China are overly influenced by the US; the US has the largest military in the world by a HUGE margin and still the largest economy; without these two things they wouldn't have anywhere near such diplomatic or cultural influence. While many European countries are influenced significantly by the US and its fashion and music / movie industry this is not the case with China or India. Furthermore, countries in which many people wear jeans are not even close to being under US control (like China or North Korea), which is what I meant when I talked about Greece in my earlier post: being talked about and known about doesn't constitute victory. If this was the case for CVs then it would an outlier with respect to the other options (diplomatic world hegemony, global military domination, massive science / engineering edge over other countries allowing the colonization of a new world without competition).

Now, since I do want to stop with the politics but can't respect myself without retorting the repeated leftist drivel, I shall put my response to that in a spoiler to not clog the page:
Noob Fanboy said:
Like i say, you need to read about neoliberalism, and why it's failing.
My point was that the left is clearly in favor of open borders, which is why they are opening the borders all over the West and saying things like "no borders, no nations" in their protests...make sense yet? You can ignore this as much as you like but that is clearly what is happening...

I feel a little insulted, actually, i guess you're seeing the left guys as the "bad ones". [etc.]
I don't see left wing politics as "bad ones" I see many people on the left being radicalized by postmodern neo-Marxists and destroying society as a result.
Of course positions on homosexuality, abortion and religion can be categorized as left or right; the fact that you don't see that is a result of you being clearly left wing (disliking of borders and boxes around ideas etc.). It is completely insane to claim that those things have nothing to do with one another or that there are "conservatives on the left"; it's like you're trying to define new words, which obviously makes discussion impossible.
Much of left wing thought is based on the idea that all humans are equal in potential, which is clearly wrong and has been disproved time and time again. Just read up on the extremely strong hereditary component of intelligence, for example, which is the primary predictor for life success.
Saying that leftists just want to get rid of inequality, while partially true, is clearly a leftist position in itself, since many conservatives also want to reduce inequality by enabling equal opportunity and fostering a meritocratic principle in society (whereas the left, especially these days, wants equality of outcome, which is diametrically opposed to that and totalitarian in nature).
Reformism is the gradual transformation of a free, capitalist society into a socialist one and therefore is a left wing radical, anti-constitutional idea. "Normal" people on the left are certainly not in favor of this.


You're confussing things, you need to read more about marxism instead of just analizing everything from a western point of view. URSS was following a Marxism variant: Marxism-Leninism. [etc]
Again, typical left wing claim of "that wasn't real Marxism / Socialism / Communism"...how many millions of more corpses do you people need to understand that these concepts simply don't work???
Socialist systems have always been and will always be murderous, inefficient and totalitarian, because Socialism is based on the idea that all humans are equal in potential, which is false and thus this ideology doesn't match the biological reality.

No, i don't mean that, but some people were voting tactically, hoping he would bring America out of the Middle East, and of course, some racist guys were voting for trump.
This is still completely ridiculous! You think the 60 million people who voted for Trump are all either racists or tactical voters?? Gimme a break, this is beyond insane.

In Europe, things are a little different, people are voting because of anti-islamism sentiment. America was voting for trump because of anti-inmigration and opposition to war
More of the same...all Trump-voters are xenophobes, all right-wing voters in Europe are islamophobes...standard left wing BS...no real arguments? Lets resort to name calling. Everyone who disagrees with me is a racist and bigot...

For me, the problem is very simple, America and Europe needs to be out of the Middle East.
Yeah I got that, since you keep projecting it onto the 100s of millions of people who don't think like you to avoid having to call every single one a racist, which would likely break you out of your cognitive dissonance; there is actually a study (done by a leftie) that shows how lefties are unable to understand conservative arguments while the reverse is not true, interestingly enough; this is why people like you can't help but assume that everyone disagreeing with you is irrational (racist, sexist, etc.)...grow up already and get out of you safe spaces and echo bubbles!
Click to expand...

OMG as I am writing this even more stuff gets posted...this is gonna be my last post in this thread (maybe xD)

tu_79 said:
For the political discussion:
There's a general misconception about Nationalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, People dictatorship, Globalisation and Neo-liberalism. You try to reduce so many things into two: left and right. This is too simplistic.
Click to expand...
Agreed; however, there is a psychological basis for political views (see for example http://quillette.com/2018/02/07/equalitarianism-progressive-bias/) and there are psychometric studies (find them yourself I've been writing enough comments for today and getting tired) that show how there are clear personality differences between people in the US who identify as conservative and those who identify as liberal. Thus a reduction is warranted when talking about motivations, which I have. The fundamental difference between left and right is being open (to ideas but also to borders etc.) vs. being closed. Knowing this also makes it easier to identify liberal vs. conservative thought; in your example of incentivizing unions but dis-incentivizing immigration you are clearly listing a nationalist position that draws a border around the country and its people. The fact that they are adopting a socialist stance as well makes them national-socialist (Nazi, since that is what the acronym stands for, after all), just like the German fascists of the 20th century.
This is why your characterization of conservative is wrong; these psychological differences are rooted in our biology and thus the political landscape you see is not just the result of chance mixed with some opportunistic positioning but has boundaries that will provoke a reaction from the population. If you go too far on the left or right you will get resistance and bombs and civil war, just like you get Trump and New Right parties in Europe with ever growing popularity now that the established parties have drifted too far left.

Anyway, enough time spent on this...
Again, my point of objection here is that I don't want "border dissolution" as the Freedom Utopia, because that is propagandistic BS and has nothing to do with the West.
 
stooooooooooop.

ya'll don't need to have the last word. just stop. please.
 
void_genesis said:
I too wonder how to make the three different wonders for three different ideologies create an actual game play mechanic that is meaningful before victory is reached.
Click to expand...

The wonders could have construction speed modifiers based on things like WC proposals (e.g. World Ideology) and the number of civs following the same ideology as yours. No real need for unique production mechanics for each ideology wonder.
 
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@CppMaster are you going to stick with the word censor? When I say I don't like pickles in my burger is that censorship?
  • Are nuclear weapons a theoretical possibility or a concrete, extant thing? (yes)
  • Are nuclear weapons overtly relevant to world history? (yes)
  • Are you able to achieve all possible victory conditions without the use of nuclear weapons? (yes)
  • Are nuclear weapons framed as a bad thing in civilization, as opposed to, say, a pinnacle of human cultural and scientific achievement? (kind of, yes)
  • Would you say that a theory describing the methods of coerced obedience to a Sovereign is something that civ is equipped to handle particularly well? (no)
  • Is the inherent danger of a nuclear weapon made more obvious in civ than the inherent danger of a police state? (yes)
  • Is a massive mushroom cloud, a ton of dead units, a severely weakened city with reduced population and a countryside left in smoldering ashes an accurate representation of what a nuclear weapon does? (yes)
  • Would you say that it is an equally accurate representation of mass surveillance annihilating basic human rights, to have that system immediately end the game with your complete victory? (no)
My issue with the panopticon is not selective pearl-clutching. Civilization already has -- let's call them "issues" -- with how the player is effectively an omniscient hand of the state. Having your end goal be the subjugation of the world's population through mass surveillance is misanthropy.

Nukes are a tragic part of world history, but at least civ didn't make them a win condition.
 
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CppMaster said:
@pineappledan Why would you censor this game by removing morally bad Panopticon, when you can commit massive genocide using nukes?
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The issue isn't that the Panopticon is morally bad. It is, by all means, morally bad, as is nuclear genocide.

The issue is that the Panopticon is required for a cultural victory, a victory largely predicated on artists, writers, and musicians creating works that touch the soul and transport the imagination. And the culmination of such majesty is--the Panopticon? Sweet lord, no.
 
Guynemer said:
The issue isn't that the Panopticon is morally bad. It is, by all means, morally bad, as is nuclear genocide.

The issue is that the Panopticon is required for a cultural victory, a victory largely predicated on artists, writers, and musicians creating works that touch the soul and transport the imagination. And the culmination of such majesty is--the Panopticon? Sweet lord, no.
Click to expand...
You're using them to dominate the prevailing thought though. Those are all state controlled and funded. I always wished tourism was more of a passive thing, but unfortunately some dumba idealist at Firaxis decided to make tourism a legitimate way to beat all those hotheads that bother to be diplomatic and kill people to achieve their goals.
 
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