The Power of Shame is a Mysterious Thing. Make one Man Weep, Make Another Man Shave

[warpus]

It's usually clear whether the person saying something means for it to be an insult or not. In some cases they could be trying to be clever with the insults or whatever, or it might not be clear for other reasons, but it usually is.

 

[sophie]

Much like fedoras, describing someone as a "neckbeard" isn't a knock on their slovenly appearance, it's rather a knock on their terrible fashion sense and the concomitant terrible political opinions that would be associated with someone with so little taste that they would think a neckbeard looks good.

It's a shorthand for the reddit intelligentsia.

the OP comic totally misses the point.

 

[BvBPL]

I know this isn't the point, but please don't use bad history arguments to augment your position, it only weakens. Ghandhi did not shame the British empire into freeing India. Shame had little to do with the eventual decision. It was the dire financial straits the British empire found itself in after WW2, and the inevitable mutiny of the Indian army that forced Britain's hand. What Ghandhi did do was help light the flame of Indian nationalism, his actual role in India's freedom is debatable. And Martin Luther King's message was absent of shame or moral condemnation of people, which is why it caught on so well. Sure he condemned racism, but he did not condemn the racist.

I'm not saying that shame was King and Ghandi's goal or primary tool. But they used it as a means to affect change. As do plenty of other people. There's a whole bunch of shaming going on among the Democrats. People are claiming that if you don't support Clinton (that is if you support Sanders) then you are not feminist. That's an attempt to shame people. There are plenty more examples in contemporary discourse of shame being an acceptable means of motivating people.

Shaming them can only push them into more of what they are.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

The shame Martin talks about is a different shame than the one Hygro talked about, though.

The one is shame out of abuse.
The other out of admiration (or because one just looks bad in comparison to what someone else does - in either case a very different beast, and something that comes from yourself rather than sth that is, in a hostile fashion, forced onto you - unless you just feel bad about it because others witness it, then it is kinda forced onto you, but way softer, still. It is complicated. But I already gave much to work with).

Much like fedoras, describing someone as a "neckbeard" isn't a knock on their slovenly appearance, it's rather a knock on their terrible fashion sense and the concomitant terrible political opinions that would be associated with someone with so little taste that they would think a neckbeard looks good.

It's a shorthand for the reddit intelligentsia.

the OP comic totally misses the point.

Could it perhaps be that it is all that AND what the OP says?

I think you make it too easy for yourself. I think that kneckberd is a host of many different aspects, including the aforementioned mind-set, but also the plain shaming of negative stereo-types in general life-style and appearance. That is the whole deal of kneckberd, IMO. To mix those things into a nasty conglomerate of ultimately taking the accused any legitimacy, regarding the debate and the whole person.

And it really is kind of funny that a feminist would shame someone with a version of "Haha you are just sour because you get no catty cat", while maintaining that he is not entitled to get some. I am not sure that it is really a contradiction. But on some level a slight conflict of values, I think.

 

[sophie]

Nice strawmanning there. While it's true neckbeard/fedora stuff has over time been conflated with older internet stereotypes of users as fat middle-aged virgins who live in their mothers' basements, that's not the original definition of the term, which refers more to a variety of reddit intellectual proudly proclaiming their euphoria over their lack of religious belief, and is certainly the way I typically conceive of the term. It's not a statement of attractiveness or sexual success or even necessarily level of personal grooming, as the OP comic suggests, but rather one of poor or badly informed fashion choices and intellectual preferences. It can also serve as a shorthand for the Dunning-Krugerism that is all too common on the internet.

 

[Phrossack]

I've seen a lot of poor fashion choices, poor grooming, and Dunning-Krugerism from Internet feminists, but those who use the term "neckbeard" unironically tend not to apply it to them.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

@Owen
I am not "strawmanning", I am arguing. You are welcome to disagree with my assumptions, but your bad faith is not tough or glib but just tiring and regrettable, from my humble POV.

Neckbeard is clearly connected to body weight. It is, as I understand it, the phenomena of having not enough beard / too fat a face to wear a proper beard, but still going with the neck beard because it hides a bit of all the fat beneath your chin. That you seem to merely understand it as "fashion sense" makes me start to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Narz]

Yeah, I don't think it's possible to be a skinny neckbeard. Who notices a skinny guy's neck?

 

[Perfection]

My neck hairs grow fuller than my beard hairs it's weird as hell so I shave that. Am I in the wrong?

 

[sophie]

@Owen
I am not "strawmanning", I am arguing. You are welcome to disagree with my assumptions, but your bad faith is not tough or glib but just tiring and regrettable, from my humble POV.

Neckbeard is clearly connected to body weight. It is, as I understand it, the phenomena of having not enough beard / too fat a face to wear a proper beard, but still going with the neck beard because it hides a bit of all the fat beneath your chin. That you seem to merely understand it as "fashion sense" makes me start to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about.

You just described my argument as:

And it really is kind of funny that a feminist would shame someone with a version of "Haha you are just sour because you get no catty cat", while maintaining that he is not entitled to get some. I am not sure that it is really a contradiction. But on some level a slight conflict of values, I think.

Which I explicitly said is not how the term works as I understand it. That is strawmanning.

As I said, the term as I understand it doesn't have to do with weight. Rather, like a fedora, or saying "m'lady" it has to do with nostalgia for an older time and an attempt to associate oneself with an older, more sophisticated people (in this case an explicitly male, white people). The use of neckbeard is alternatively an association with the 19th century thinkers like Thoreau or to classical Greek/Roman philosophers. It ties into the wider "we here at [x] are intellectuals" sort of internet culture: predominantly white, male, atheist, anti-(academic) establishment, self-taught and proud ("I never tried in school but I was so smart I could pull B+'s anyway"). They hold a great, almost deified reverence for, in particular, the humanist thought of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries to the exception of near everything else. That is a neckbeard as I know it. It has nothing to do with physical attributes, ironically not even the beard itself, it has rather to do with a dumb, faux-intellectual, dated, blithely privileged worldview.

The "today I am euphoric..." crowd. That's the neckbeard core demographic.

 

[warpus]

Owen, that's a somewhat strangely detailed and overall strange interpretation of the term. To me a neckbeard is just a guy who is 30, lives in his parents' basement, doesn't care about personal hygiene too much, and might or might not complain that "nice guys don't get dates". From what I've seen the term "neckbeard" is what some people use to try to imply that you are a person like that when they insult you.

Humanists from the 16th century, that's pretty out there. Where are you getting that from?

 

[Oruc]

Nothing wrong with mocking neckbeards or fedora tippers. Owen is mostly right according to what I've encountered it's used to mock atheists "in this moment I am euphoric not because of..." but also male feminists.
But it seems strange to bring it up now it's largely out of favour and use.

 

[caketastydelish]

I used to be more shy and afraid and bullied, but times have changed. I've started lifting weights, I've eaten healthier, and I'm becoming a boxer.

I'm a 24 year old man with maxed out testosterone and pimped out muscles. Anyone who calls me a 'neckbeard' or 'loser' or to tell me to 'cry some more' any of the other things they've called me (even on this very forum) will pay with their lives.

 

[jackelgull]

I used to be more shy and afraid and bullied, but times have changed. I've started lifting weights, I've eaten healthier, and I'm becoming a boxer.

I'm a 24 year old man with maxed out testosterone and pimped out muscles. Anyone who calls me a 'neckbeard' or 'loser' or to tell me to 'cry some more' any of the other things they've called me (even on this very forum) will pay with their lives.

I'd like to see you punch me through the screen .

 

[BvBPL]

I used to be more shy and afraid and bullied, but times have changed. I've started lifting weights, I've eaten healthier, and I'm becoming a boxer.

I'm a 24 year old man with maxed out testosterone and pimped out muscles. Anyone who calls me a 'neckbeard' or 'loser' or to tell me to 'cry some more' any of the other things they've called me (even on this very forum) will pay with their lives.

So what role did shame play in your lifestyle change? Did you feel shame about you previous state? Do you presently feel it would be shameful to return to your old ways?

 

[Lohrenswald]

I think shame just will motivate people to give up

 

[Hygro]

I think shame just will motivate people to give up

Yeah, give up or overshoot in a fit of toxic, hurtful rage. If shame leads to a third thing I'd be curious to find out.

 

[caketastydelish]

I'd like to see you punch me through the screen .

One thing, I don't know why it doesn't even matter how hard I try!

 

[BenitoChavez]

Someone has been listening to a lot of Linkin Park lately.

 

[Borachio]

Yeah, give up or overshoot in a fit of toxic, hurtful rage. If shame leads to a third thing I'd be curious to find out.

It could lead to an attempt to live "better".