The problem with Black Lives Matter

[Arwon]

The figures for each racial group in the US are roughly what's from the census (I used total white, but non-hispanic white bumps the rate up to 2.5 per million). The 500 and 200 are roughly where the lines are for 2015 in that chart.

As a reminder, here was OP's graph

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Uh, I think they are in fact your assumptions. You're projecting them onto the things other people are saying because, as Arwon says, you either didn't see or were unable to comprehend the chart they were talking about.

I refer you to https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...lack-lives-matter.619549/page-5#post-14805480

I await a different interpretation of those comments.

 

[Narz]

a Zulu legend admits their ancient ancestors killed the apemen

Really?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I didn't say anything other than "there are a lot more white people about, of course they get killed more often." It's not a goalpost move because that simple assumption still underlies my analysis. Don't make large logical leaps that turn out to be wrong and then accuse people of goalpost moving when they point out your chicanery.

Chicanery? I've gone through, several times, my exact argument and thought process AND maths in EXCRUCIATING detail, even highlighting the couple of points where I might have misinterpreted someone's intention and said I'd be happy to see some clarification, and you're going to accuse me of chicanery? Just... <snip>

Moderator Action: Swearing is not acceptable at CFC. Neither is flaming. ~ Arakhor
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Arwon]

The other thing to note is that a lot more black Americans than white Americans are victims and perpetrators of homicide.

If killings happened with current perpetrator counts, but were hitting victims randomly across the black and white US populations, then we'd expect to see a lot more white victims of black murderers than is actually the case.

This is the FBI counts for 2013, this data will correspond to the graph above's data points for 2013:

If we, for simplicity, ignore other racial groups and distribute just the count of black/white victims of black/white killers randomly by population shares, we get this:

Most murders occur within races because of the degree of community sorting that occurs in the US. Most people kill people they know.

But the rate at which white folk are killing different racial groups is actually a lot closer to what we'd expect from a fully random distribution of victims, than the rate at which black folk are killing different racial groups. This distribution is all almost certainly reflective of degrees of community contact and interaction and also of the dysfunction of particular communities, rather than having a directly racial explanation.

I mean, it's not like this data will include killings by cops (the actual core of BLM grievances), since it's about unlawful homicides and very few killings by police get treated that way.

 

[cardgame]

Chicanery? I've gone through, several times, my exact argument and thought process AND maths in EXCRUCIATING detail, even highlighting the couple of points where I might have misinterpreted someone's intention and said I'd be happy to see some clarification, and you're going to accuse me of chicanery?

I won't accuse you of chicanery, but I will accuse you of telling others about basic algebra without applying such algebra to the problem at hand, which Arwon has come in and done.

 

[civver_764]

The problem is you don't even understand the issue you are trying to discuss. White people run society. Look at Congress or any state legislature. Being the majority means you are responsible for inequality that exists, be it income inequality, racial inequality, what have you. Again, the slogan might be hyperbolic, but the underlying conclusion is spot on - if you are in the majority and not contributing to the fight against inequality - one which benefits you as part of the majority - you are permitting the status quo of racial inequality to persist.

"White people" is not a single entity. Please explain how I am personally responsible for income and racial inequality.

"White" names get 50% more callbacks for jobs than "black" names.
A craigslist ad for an iPod with a black hand gets 13% fewer responses and 17% fewer offers than that showing a white hand, black sellers get less money.
Black and Hispanic students drop out of college at significantly higher rates than white students.
Blacks and Latinos face significantly higher mortgage rejection rates, even when controlled for credit and income; when accepted they often pay higher fees or have higher interest rates.
Pew finds the same in surveying mortgages, and Black and Latino people have significantly lower rates of home ownership.

Thanks for providing these. The first study is definitely troubling. I did find a more recent study which showed much more promising results. I couldn't find the methodology for that study, so I'm not sure what explains the discrepancy. It could be perhaps that they picked particularly unique black names. It could be more a function of seeing an unfamiliar name rather than seeing a black name. I wonder if foreigners with similarly unfamiliar names would have seen the same results.

Ditto for the 2nd and 4th studies. They definitely seem to reflect at least some level of prejudice towards black people. However, I would not consider these examples of institutional racism. There are no institutional policies behind these results. It's all the private feelings of private individuals. It's definitely worth looking into why people seem to hold more negative attitudes towards black people, but I don't see what we can do at the institutional level to alleviate these things.

They are systematically devalued as human beings compared to white people.

See when you say stuff like this I feel like you're just trying to make it sound worse than it is. Why do you feel the need to do this?

For starters, stop trying to argue that it doesn't exist.

So basically I should shut up? The only people afraid of discussion are those who aren't confident in their own position.

Stop trying to tear down other people who are trying to shine a spotlight on it.

This is rich, you're the one telling people to shut up.

Recognize your privileged place in American society and stop heaping scorn on people who just want the same fair shake that you and I enjoy.

How am I ever supposed to recognize this if I get told to shut up whenever I try to talk about it?

If black people are 10% of the population, but only 5% of the people an average white person sees each day are black, then the "random" murder rate - assuming the victim is truly selected at random - is only going to reflect the number of black people actually encountered, not their share of the population as a whole. Therefore, when accounting for random interracial murders, what matters is how frequently people encounter people of another race, not simply their proportion of the population as a whole.

You realize of course, that every black-on-white encounter is also a white-on-black encounter. By definition, the encounter rate is exactly the same for both groups. Therefore, all things being equal, you should expect to see equal numbers on the graph. Now, I don't think the black-on-white murder rate is higher because of anti-white racism necessarily, it's probably mostly to do with the fact that black people just kill people more in general.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

it's probably mostly to do with the fact that black people just kill people more in general.

That's an illogical supposition, and an extremely racist thing to say.

 

[civver_764]

It's a statistical fact...

 

[Lemon Merchant]

It's a statistical fact...

For those wearing white sheets, maybe. Show me the exact statistic that shows me that black people kill more people in general, or is this more of your horse excrement hyperbole?

 

[civver_764]

For those wearing white sheets, maybe. Show me the exact statistic that shows me that black people kill more people in general, or is this more of your horse excrement hyperbole?

I mean you could just look at Arwon's post and figure this one out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

Black people make up 13% of the population, but commit 50% of the homicides. That's the highest rate out of any racial group. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Berzerker]

Really?

Indaba My Children and cited in Genesis Revisited

some weird stuff, the author of Indaba has youtube vids about myths and legends but my brief search didn't turn up the legend he tells about the war with the apemen in the book.

 

[Berzerker]

Black people make up 13% of the population, but commit 50% of the homicides. That's the highest rate out of any racial group. Don't shoot the messenger.

drug wars fill cemeteries

 

[civver_764]

If you're going to use quote marks, it should probably be something the person actually said.

 

[Berzerker]

If you're going to use quote marks, it should probably be something the person actually said.

You shouldn't have to tell him that either, but he aint alone... I've noticed several people make up quotes to pass off on their opponents

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you're going to use quote marks, it should probably be something the person actually said.

Why bother? You're going to respond with more of the same nonsense either way, and the rest of us aren't going to be surprised when you do because you always do the same thing. So whatever is tossed your way is the same, quote marks or not. Just food.

 

[Berzerker]

you're one of the people who like to fabricate quotes

 

[Timsup2nothin]

you're one of the people who like to fabricate quotes

Sometimes. It can be good for making a point. But as I said, when dealing with inane shill posts it doesn't really matter one way or the other. The people who matter are laughing at the shill anyway, and the shill is going to just keep on shilling no matter what is said so it's just a question of how to have the most fun with them.

 

[luiz]

Indaba My Children and cited in Genesis Revisited

some weird stuff, the author of Indaba has youtube vids about myths and legends but my brief search didn't turn up the legend he tells about the war with the apemen in the book.

Well it's not like you need to resort to legends for concrete examples of the Zulu killing weaker opponents. It is estimated that their conquest / expansion into Southern Africa left between 1 and 2 million dead. Much like the Boers who arrived a bit later, the Zulu were very much foreign conquerors who brutally subjugated technologically less advanced peoples of the region.

 

[Borachio]

I don't get it.

All these people killing each other.

If they don't like each other, why don't they just steer well clear?