The problem with Black Lives Matter

[Senethro]

You listen to some people and species don't exist. There are just sort of populations of associated genotypes that split merge and evolve, and to consider them discrete things is foolish.

 

[Akka]

Like I said, complain to the racists please. They're the ones at fault.

That's exactly what I'm doing, I'm laughing at people who judge others based on their races.
I'm also laughing at the self-contradiction they display when claiming it's stupid to judge someone on his race.
I could also laugh at how they then manage to accuse others of what they are doing, while these others are actually less racist than themselves, but my throat starts to get raw by then.

Your idea is literally "let's pretend racism doesn't exist, then it will go away."

Not being racist means claiming racism doesn't exist ?
You learn something every day

EDIT: Actually, that got me to thinking, me saying "it doesn't work" only makes sense if I assume you actually see racism as a problem that requires solving. You've never given any evidence of that.

Well, you've always claimed that racism is a problem, immediately followed (or preceded) by acting racist yourself, so I guess you shouldn't throw rocks in a glass house.
Also beam and straw and eye and all that.

 

[Lexicus]

You listen to some people and species don't exist. There are just sort of populations of associated genotypes that split merge and evolve, and to consider them discrete things is foolish.

I'm not sure I know of anyone who considers it foolish - more like a useful approximation/simplification.

Not being racist means claiming racism doesn't exist ?

No, it means that your nonsensical "colorblind" solutions to the problems caused by racism are non-solutions, in effect pretending that racism doesn't exist in order to "solve" it.

 

[metalhead]

I'm still not sure where "policies that mitigate that harms of racial prejudice" somehow gets turned into "judging people by race." The two are most definitely not the same thing.

I'm pretty sure that's either trolling, or the twisted logic of someone who benefits greatly from the elevated status of white mediocrity and will protect that status at all costs.

 

[Akka]

No, it means that your nonsensical "colorblind" solutions to the problems caused by racism are non-solutions, in effect pretending that racism doesn't exist in order to "solve" it.

So basically you just repeat "not being racist means you pretend racism doesn't exist". You're part of the people who think you just have to repeat the same idiocy enough and it will magically morph into fact ?

I'm still not sure where "policies that mitigate that harms of racial prejudice" somehow gets turned into "judging people by race." The two are most definitely not the same thing.

I'm pretty sure that's either trolling, or the twisted logic of someone who benefits greatly from the elevated status of white mediocrity and will protect that status at all costs.

Treating someone differently according to race is the definition of racism.
I'm pretty sure it takes either trolling or the twisted lack of logic of someone unable to get his blinders off to not understand something as simple.

 

[metalhead]

You mean like you keep repeating the ridiculous strawman, "Treating people according to their race is stupid and harmful ! And to fix it, we're going to treat people according to their race !" instead of actually engaging the issue?

Treating someone differently according to race is the definition of racism.
I'm pretty sure it takes either trolling or the twisted lack of logic of someone unable to get his blinders off to not understand something as simple.

Why is it that you are incapable of engaging beyond this incredibly simplistic strawman? Why even bother chiming in when this is all you can contribute to the conversation?

I mean, you obviously have no clue about any of this. Ensuring that mortgage lending decisions and interest rates are not discriminating against black mortgage applicants is the opposite of treating people differently according to race.

 

[Lexicus]

So basically you just repeat "not being racist means you pretend racism doesn't exist". You're part of the people who think you just have to repeat the same idiocy enough and it will magically morph into fact ?

Can you give a specific example of "repeat[ing] the same idiocy"? Like, for example, is it your opinion that, say, race-based affirmative action in higher education, is the "same idiocy" as the systematic exclusion of non-whites from participation in politics and society?

 

[Akka]

You mean like you keep repeating the ridiculous strawman, "Treating people according to their race is stupid and harmful ! And to fix it, we're going to treat people according to their race !" instead of actually engaging the issue?

Ah yeah, "I'm caught in my hypocrisy, so I'm going to call what I can't answer a strawman ! Ahaha I'm so clever !"

Can you give a specific example of "repeat[ing] the same idiocy"?

=>

So basically you just repeat "not being racist means you pretend racism doesn't exist".

5-years old reading comprehension for the win.

 

[metalhead]

Ah yeah, "I'm caught in my hypocrisy, so I'm going to call what I can't answer a strawman ! Ahaha I'm so clever !"

It's a strawman because you're pretending that the only policies one might champion to fight discrimination involve actively discriminating. I've answered this stupidity several times, including a few posts up, but of course you ignore that and return to your juvenile banalities.

You add absolutely nothing of substance or of interest to these discussions. You just try to troll and derail. I'm not sure why, but I could probably guess.

 

[Akka]

It's a strawman because you're pretending that the only policies one might champion to fight discrimination involve actively discriminating. I've answered this stupidity several times, including a few posts up, but of course you ignore that and return to your juvenile banalities.

Funny, what YOU are doing is a strawman (misrepresenting my argument, which is about the parts where you judge people on race, all the while claiming judging people on their race is bad, and has absolutely no link to pretending there is no non-discriminating policies to fight discrimination).
Hypocrisy, once again. That's not even a habit by now, it's nearly like you are made of the stuff and ooze through your pores and your mouth.

You add absolutely nothing of substance or of interest to these discussions. You just try to troll and derail. I'm not sure why, but I could probably guess.

I just sometimes can't stomach the same systematic hypocrisy, and maybe foolishly hope that maybe this time, the usual suspects will manage to put their blinders off for a moment and realize their self-contradiction, at least for a moment.
Yeah, a very foolish hope, I know.

Oh, and Lexicus, I saw this post before you deleted it. Pretty telling

 

[Senethro]

You've failed to make a case for enduring a wrong instead of attempting to address it.

Maybe if you presented functional courses of action that go beyond telling anti-racists that they are as bad as the racists.

Or you could smugly dismiss everyone to perpetuate your self image. Sole voice of reason is such a hard yet worthy road to hoe.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Racism is stupid nonsense but it causes harm. So its more productive to tell people to knock it off and to remedy the harm, rather than to complain that anti-racists are buying into a racist idea of race.

Yes you are apparently buying into racism. Dont know why but I assume its becouse of the past racialy formulated ideologies and the subsequent fight against them.
If you want to really solve the problem with cultural based prejudice you have to let the issue to be clarified and not to use outdated misleading concepts. Say you have been shot. How are you going to get healthy if you keep the bullet in your body? And this is precisely what you are doing by telling people stop being racist.
If the blacks kill and enslave each other in Africa its tough life. If that happens to blacks somewhere else its racism? I dont think this ideological inconsistency is viable anymore or intellectually honest. By using racist terminology you are simply confusing the issue and helping to create greater unnecessary divide in the minds of people. There are no human races only cultural groups and subgroups with various physical phenotypes.

I agree that the concept of "race" is bogus and arbitrary.

However, this arbitrary construct has a huge impact on how people are treated by society. So the concept of "race" itself has a lot of meaning even if its origins are capricious and arbitrary.

As I explained above imo we have to move away from the faulty and detrimental mental concepts and not to be 'slaves' of the past mistakes to be able to efficiently solve the issue.

 

[metalhead]

If we could simply cure people of ignorance, then yes, we could make the whole problem disappear without any messy policymaking. That would be wonderful; it also strikes me as very unrealistic.

As I've said many times to usually be ignored, I don't care to try to eliminate racism, because as a policy goal that makes no sense. However, I do care to mitigate the negative effects of prejudice. Perhaps that would be a more effective framing of the problem, but I've also made it clear that I don't view sparing people's feelings by avoiding loaded terms as worthwhile, either.

 

[Lexicus]

If we could simply cure people of ignorance, then yes, we could make the whole problem disappear without any messy policymaking.

I don't think the problem is ignorance. The problem is white people jealously guarding their privilege... they know full well what they're doing.

 

[Akka]

You've failed to make a case for enduring a wrong instead of attempting to address it.

Actually, that's the opposite. I'm favouring addressing the wrong - but the wrong itself, not fixating on race and as such just trying to kill fire by burning it.
I trust in fixing societal problems (like poverty and lack of education and so on), and that reducing such societal problems is the best way to reduce the social stigma that is attached to poor minorities, and thus reducing effective racism.

Maybe if you presented functional courses of action that go beyond telling anti-racists that they are as bad as the racists.

I'm not telling anti-racists they are as bad as the racists, I'm pointing the FACT that they ARE racists and their claims are empty and self-contradictory. That's the whole point.

Case in point :

I don't think the problem is ignorance. The problem is white people jealously guarding their privilege... they know full well what they're doing.

Ah, these evil white people ! Such a disgusting race !

 

[metalhead]

The institutional-type wrongs I believe are more a product of implicit bias than overt racism, or protection of privilege. Surely protection of privilege is part of it as well, but if people were cured of ignorance, they would realize what kind of company you have to keep when you make protecting whiteness your cause, and that cause would mostly be marginalized.

Ah, these evil white people ! Such a disgusting race !

You really just have no understanding of the issue whatsoever. If you don't get the difference between calling out the behavior of white people in protecting their privilege, and denouncing racial prejudice in society, than I don't know why you "participate" in these discussions. This is just a joke, man, seriously. The problem is some people's behavior, not the entire race of white people. Sheesh. You really are just a troll.

 

[Senethro]

So should King and Mandela have used the plays in your book or what? What would have the advantages been?

 

[metalhead]

So should King and Mandela have used the plays in your book or what? What would have the advantages been?

Apparently MLK was a hypocrite for calling out white moderates as the chief roadblock to racial equality.

 

[Akka]

As I've said many times to usually be ignored, I don't care to try to eliminate racism, because as a policy goal that makes no sense. However, I do care to mitigate the negative effects of prejudice.

So basically what I said : fixing society does the best job - because it fixes the actual effects, and on top of that it does it in a moral manner (helping ALL poor people) and manage not to frame such or such race as "special welfare queen", nor breed resentment because of perceived favouritism.

Perhaps that would be a more effective framing of the problem, but I've also made it clear that I don't view sparing people's feelings by avoiding loaded terms as worthwhile, either.

So basically, virtue signaling.
"I'm not really interested in fixing things actually, I just want to show off how incredibly progressive I am"
Nice of you to admit it (yay, maybe the first time I remember you not being a hypocrite - well, though it's about admitting being a hypocrite, so I guess it's a wash), but let's be honest, we already noticed a long time ago. Guess you still deserves a cookie for this.

So should King and Mandela have used the plays in your book or what? What would have the advantages been?

King and Mandela are actually the exact opposite of you SJW. They didn't fight for a society which was race-focused, they fought for a society which was race-blind. MLK's "I had a dream" explicitely said it, in fact. Funny, isn't it ?

 

[metalhead]

Go away troll, this is just pathetic

King and Mandela are actually the exact opposite of you SJW. They didn't fight for a society which was race-focused, they fought for a society which was race-blind. MLK's "I had a dream" explicitely said it, in fact. Funny, isn't it ?

I should have known

Moderator Action: Do not call other members trolls. Further, members are not permitted to act as 'thread bouncers'. ~ Arakhor
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889