The Pyramids and Great People

[Doshin]

I have a question for y'all, inspired by a recent game with Gilgamesh in which I built the 'mids. The start and surrounding land were rather poor... Plains as far as the eye could see, or at least as far as the player could feasibly REX. The capital was fed by a Grass-Hill Pig and a Plains Cow:




The Pig just about redeems the spot. There are four grassland tiles in total, so it's a horrible research capital if you go the cottage route. I did, however, have Stone. This, plus the large number of Forests, lent themselves to the Mids. So I promptly chopped this out.

Now, even in Representation I like to use Great Scientists to (first) build an Academy and (second and third) bulb Philosophy/Education/Lib. However, what do you do with any other Great People that spawn? Which should be settled, when, and why?

In this game, my first Great Person was a Great Engineer, which spawned at 40% odds in 725 BC:




My second Great Person was the free Great Artist, which I received with Music in 300 BC:




Now, if I weren't in Representation, I would generally want the Great Engineer to bulb Machinery or to rush a good wonder. I almost always save the Music Great Artist for my first Golden Age.

Here I settled both. Was I correct? Should the Great Engineer have been saved to rush-build the Great Library (no Marble)? Should the Music Great Artist have still been kept for a Golden Age?

I'm fairly sure that a Great Prophet should always be settled when you are in Representation (except when you can bulb Theology first). Great Merchants should be saved for Trade Missions, except (perhaps) in those rare games when the Great Merchant is your first GP and you build the Mids. (It's not very common to build GLH or ToA AND the Pyramids.)

There's probably no 'right' answer here. I'm just interested to hear your thoughts.

Save attached, in case any of you want to give this one a go (Deity, Fractal, Medium sea, no huts/no events).

 

[Izuul]

I can't tell you if it's correct, but i like the alternative options. The Great Library is really strong with Rep, and the two free scientists not only provide 18 base beakers, but also make it easier to get great scientists to bulb your way to Lib. The Golden Age is extremely powerful too. Pacifism + Caste starve doesn't work well if you have to waste turns of anarchy switching civics, and you don't get the bonus GPP either. I don't think the 9 bpt or whatever the settled artist gives can compare to that.

 

[Manco Capac]

I sense a good opportunity for a fast U.N. victory.
Peter+Hammy=Bureaucracy
Joao II=Monarchy
I looked at the save and it seems there is enough food to have GScientists spawning cities.

It seems lack of exploration is a mistake here. In fractal, it's very possible to get unexpected contacts compared to pangaea. But it needs personal investment.

 

[vranasm]

imo if you start with SSE you go full on it... maybe except the music's GA.

settling like 2 great person brings you almost nothing... in this case using the GE for TGL would make maybe more sense.

would be interesting to hear opinion from Obsolete if he would go here stonehenge or not.

 

[cseanny]

Interesting questions. First off ^^, I would have grown to 8+ happy cap! . I would have used the GE for TGL and used the GA for a GA. Once Bureau's in looks like an 11 pop Capital working cow, pigs, and 4 farms can run 5 scientist +2 (TGL) so I'd imagine you could squeek out 3 more GS to play with during your GA.

 

[Doshin]

I think my Great People usage in this game has gone as follows:

GE: Settle
GA: Settle
GS: Academy
GS: Golden Age (1)
GS: Bulb Education
GM: Overseas trade mission
GS: Golden Age (2)
GM: Golden Age (2)
GS: Settle
GS: Settle
GS: Settle

The game isn't over yet (~1600 AD). Great Scientists were settled en masse after Lib, when bulbing started to become less important.

Reaching a size 8 happy cap is easier said than done! Between building Workers, Settlers, and running Scientists, there's only so much room for growth.

I'm quite happy to accept that the GE could (should?) have been used to rush-buy TGL. I might have been too greedy. I thought that the capital's high production tiles and chopped forests would be enough. Ah, hubris.

The Music GA is a different issue: +3 and +3 isn't game changing, I know, but if you lack an Academy, a NE spot, Code of Laws, Civil Service, and Philosophy, you're not going to be starting a Golden Age anytime soon. I reasoned that the short-term benefits would out-weight the eventual additional GM or GS. Maybe I was wrong? I was probably wrong. Still, it's not unusual to tech Music long before you plan to start a GA.

@ Tachywaxon

Good point re. exploration. I never think about building scouting WBs, but should get into this habit on Fractal maps.

 

[vranasm]

imo for SSE there is not enough prophets. i saw obsolete saves/games where he had at the 1600 AD around 10-12 specialists settled (and most of them being prophets from early ToA, stonehenge and oracle)...

I still think if you would mix the 3 last GS into more useful mix and launch another GA you would get better off.

and one of those early GS could be used to bulb Philo...

I still think you didn't play SSE game really, it is to me some very weird mixture of intentions.

 

[ben-jammin]

Missing the great library hurts a lot, although the settled engineer is not a poor second-best. I'd have gone for stonehenge, hanging gardens, angkor, chichen itza. Crap wonders normally but settled rep prophets are extremely strong in a bureau cap (so are engineers but less so, theyd be better used to rush wonders you're in danger of losing in the WW/SSE) and have a major snowball effect in terms of generating more hammers for quicker wonders for more GPP for more hammers. And if you dont get them you get the boosted fail gold as your consolation prize.

 

[The Oz-Man]

Out of curiosity, why are prophets specifically so strong in a Bureau cap? I've seen this before, and I've seen how powerful prophets can be, but why under Bureau specifically? Is it just because the hammers and gold get multiplied?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Out of curiosity, why are prophets specifically so strong in a Bureau cap? I've seen this before, and I've seen how powerful prophets can be, but why under Bureau specifically? Is it just because the hammers and gold get multiplied?

The gold isn't multiplied by Bureau

The answer is the snowball: hammers improve production, production produces wonders, wonders produce priests, priests produce hammers.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Can't offer you some super duper advice about GP usage but I've loaded the starting save and played about 50 turns.

Some questions for you:
- What was your initial tech path? Seems very tricky to me.
- What decided you to go for the Pyramids? Doesn't feel bad but doesn't feel natural to me either. Compared to, say, a straight Elephant rush (both aren't incompatible, yes).
- At what date could you complete the Pyramids? What was the state of your Empire at that time?

My answers to those same questions, 'till 1880 BC (didn't play further; stopped twice already: tricky start!):

Spoiler :

- Tech path: AH -> Writing -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Masonry.
Writing beeline = Mathematics bulb to, hopefully, speed up the wonder; May convert to Elephant rush as well. Not sure Representation is more attractive than Police State.
Settler was built at size 2. Got a gold city to help with research that also started a settler at size 2.
After settler, capital grew to size 4 on a Library then built another worker, hired scientists and built yet another worker and yet another (2 cities, 4 workers). Will soon grow to size 5 to work Pigs, cows, quarry and hire 2 scientists (51/100gpp at 1880 BC).
- Why the Mids? Well, I'm going for them because you did I also hope to double the Engineer gpp with the Hanging Gardens.
- Completion date is unknown. Hopefully circa 1400 BC. Will have 4 cities, probably.

Save attached with dotmap. Another tricky point.

 

[Manco Capac]

I think my Great People usage in this game has gone as follows:

GE: Settle
GA: Settle
GS: Academy
GS: Golden Age (1)
GS: Bulb Education
GM: Overseas trade mission
GS: Golden Age (2)
GM: Golden Age (2)
GS: Settle
GS: Settle
GS: Settle

The game isn't over yet (~1600 AD). Great Scientists were settled en masse after Lib, when bulbing started to become less important.

Reaching a size 8 happy cap is easier said than done! Between building Workers, Settlers, and running Scientists, there's only so much room for growth.

I'm quite happy to accept that the GE could (should?) have been used to rush-buy TGL. I might have been too greedy. I thought that the capital's high production tiles and chopped forests would be enough. Ah, hubris.

The Music GA is a different issue: +3 and +3 isn't game changing, I know, but if you lack an Academy, a NE spot, Code of Laws, Civil Service, and Philosophy, you're not going to be starting a Golden Age anytime soon. I reasoned that the short-term benefits would out-weight the eventual additional GM or GS. Maybe I was wrong? I was probably wrong. Still, it's not unusual to tech Music long before you plan to start a GA.

@ Tachywaxon

Good point re. exploration. I never think about building scouting WBs, but should get into this habit on Fractal maps.

I take a quick peek into your map and I see if exploration was started enough early, you would see who are on the other continents (I can spoil; you are at 1600 AD) and assume the easiness of a U.N. victory.

And why dismissing a U.N. ? Not enough manly.
It seems everytime people plays deity, it has to win via conquest/dom.

True, conquest/dom are generally the hardest victories, but I think a diplo game is quite zipping here.

 

[babar]

@Vranasm

I only play immortal, but the 'mids + settled GPs is by far my preferred way of playing. I don't think it's true that you have to either settle everything or nothing, or that you need Prophets (although I agree they are very marginally the best). If you actually have the 'mids, settling any single engineer, prophet, scientist or a merchant (if your capital is low in food) is rather helpful, and usually a good idea (although not always the absolute best idea). Think of it as a "hybrid economy", of Obsolete's and the more standard style.

 

[vranasm]

@Vranasm

I only play immortal, but the 'mids + settled GPs is by far my preferred way of playing. I don't think it's true that you have to either settle everything or nothing, or that you need Prophets (although I agree they are very marginally the best). If you actually have the 'mids, settling any single engineer, prophet, scientist or a merchant (if your capital is low in food) is rather helpful, and usually a good idea (although not always the absolute best idea). Think of it as a "hybrid economy", of Obsolete's and the more standard style.

well from my experience I would say that actually best results are if you go all in with this kind of economy... but still undecided about half Edu bulb and Philo bulb to be honest.

One GS for academy is given ofc.

 

[Doshin]

@ BornInCantaloup

I went: AH ---> Mining ---> Masonry ---> BW ---> Writing ---> Hunting ---> Fishing. Build order went Warrior ---> Worker, which meant that AH came in a turn before I built the Worker.

With Stone in the BFC and generally poor starting land, the Mids seemed like a good way to compensate. I don't think a SSE is optimal or even possible here, but Representation and Police State are very powerful civics all the same. Cottaging the capital seems a little forced.

The Pyramids was completed in 1440 BC, or T64. I had three cities at the time. City 2 claimed the Ivory/Wheat/Fish, before Peter's culture took over completely. City 3 took the Gold/Plains Cow. That Gold, incidentally, is the only way the player can generate research prior to building the Mids.

I'm very interested to see how the Mathematics bulb pans out, if you do decide to go that route. I didn't run any Specialists before the Mids, because I wanted to get my money's worth from Rep. Bulbing Mathematics offers two chief benefits: increased likelihood of building the Hanging Gardens and an earlier Elephant rush. It has three big drawbacks: running Specialists pre-Rep is less efficient than post-Rep, your early expansion is slowed down (compounded by the fact that you are building one, perhaps two Stone wonders), and the Mathematics bulb means that you lose a Great Scientist to a weaker, early bulb.

I think you'd need to build the Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, and Elepult rush to justify the bulb. That's a lot to pull off, but, if done correctly, would surely win you the game.

@vranasm

Spoilering this comment, so as not to reveal anything about the map:

Spoiler :

Stonehenge can't be built, so there's no easy outlet for Great Prophets. The only way it can be done is to build a Warrior first, tech Mysticism, and then work two Plains Forests at size 2. Building a Worker first or teching AH means you lose it. Such commitment is counterproductive and unrealistic without prior map knowledge.

The real problem with the SSE on this map is that Ramesses is on another continent, and two other builder AIs have Marble in their capitals' BFCs. Justinian built the Oracle in 2320 BC in my game. But I don't think that you need to run a SSE with the Mids. Generating 2000 Gold in 1000 AD with a single GM offers more to the player, IMO, than a settled GP.

GEs and the first GA have less obvious uses, to me at least, which was why I started the thread. Do you use the GE to rush wonders? Do you let the GA sit on his hands for 40 turns before finally starting a Golden Age? Or do you settle both and reap the short-term benefits, although in the long-term this may prove less efficient?

@Tachywaxon

Yes, Civ IV is a man's game. I only play Civ IV while eating steak and eggs, or performing push-ups.

More seriously, a genuine Diplo victory is much harder than Dom/Conquest, I think. Either an AI gets to the U.N. before you and you're too small to stand in the elections, or you annoy someone along the way. Diplomation doesn't count. Regarding exploration...

Spoiler :

on this map, I don't think it's possible to meet the other off-continent AI before Compass. Joao can where his and Ramssess' cultures kiss, but that doesn't help the player.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks for your answer, Doshin.
Couple of comments:

Build order went Warrior ---> Worker, which meant that AH came in a turn before I built the Worker.
[...]
With Stone in the BFC and generally poor starting land, the Mids seemed like a good way to compensate. I don't think a SSE is optimal or even possible here, but Representation and Police State are very powerful civics all the same. Cottaging the capital seems a little forced.

The Pyramids was completed in 1440 BC, or T64. I had three cities at the time. City 2 claimed the Ivory/Wheat/Fish, before Peter's culture took over completely. City 3 took the Gold/Plains Cow. That Gold, incidentally, is the only way the player can generate research prior to building the Mids.

Warrior first is a surprising move, especially when starting with The Wheel. With Worker first you could road 1 turn on the pigs before starting the pasture. No big deal, though.
Warrior is particularly fitted to worker steal but on Deity Fractal...

Interesting points about NOT spamming stone wonders and capital being rather a production city than anything else. Agreed.

"That Gold, incidentally, is the only way the player can generate research prior to building the Mids."
I'll add that it also makes up for distracting research into Masonry.
City 2 by the fish is certainly more productive but you also need Fishing and Hunting to make full use of it. So, precisely for the reason you state, I'd think city 2 is best planted by the gold.
I've kept the fish spot for my 4th city. Early open borders with Peter revealed a large chunk of green land north, north-east of his capital, so it didn't seem like he would expand south super early.


I've completed the Pyramids yesterday. Didn't play any further. 1360 BC (T66).

Spoiler :

I replayed from 1600 BC today cause I played like a potato, neglecting to backfill Fishing while settling a Fish city (1S of dotmap because Peter had a settler in position). I've also been banking beakers into Horseback Riding... Not sure that's the best idea. Currency is most appealing.
Mathematics was bulbed on 1360BC. 4 forests were pre-chopped and the 4 workers were timed to be in position for a massive hammer burst (which is why I didn't pay attention to Fishing).
3 other forests were chopped pre-Maths. 1 in capital and 2 in cow/gold city, to help a little with expansion. With only 7 total chops, forest use has been quite economical.


Close-up:

Spoiler :

That was fun. Been a long time since I timed workers like that.

Large view:

Spoiler :

Land blocked for 5 more cities.
Creative trait rules to a) block and b) steal your neighbours' resources (aka gold to fund expansion/research). Hopefully, I'll get that Sheep as well, once a city is planted 2S1W of it.

 

[vranasm]

@doshin

you don't need to run SSE with Mids but if the question was "should I settle couple of great persons under Rep?" then my answer is "not really, spare them for golden ages or other useful tasks"

 

[BurN]

@vranasm

Spoilering this comment, so as not to reveal anything about the map:

Spoiler :

Stonehenge can't be built, so there's no easy outlet for Great Prophets. The only way it can be done is to build a Warrior first, tech Mysticism, and then work two Plains Forests at size 2. Building a Worker first or teching AH means you lose it. Such commitment is counterproductive and unrealistic without prior map knowledge.

The real problem with the SSE on this map is that Ramesses is on another continent, and two other builder AIs have Marble in their capitals' BFCs. Justinian built the Oracle in 2320 BC in my game. But I don't think that you need to run a SSE with the Mids. Generating 2000 Gold in 1000 AD with a single GM offers more to the player, IMO, than a settled GP.

GEs and the first GA have less obvious uses, to me at least, which was why I started the thread. Do you use the GE to rush wonders? Do you let the GA sit on his hands for 40 turns before finally starting a Golden Age? Or do you settle both and reap the short-term benefits, although in the long-term this may prove less efficient?

One of the reasons I think SSE is only highly situational. A long, long time ago I actually tried a lot of deity openings and it's just not a solid strategy. Often you will miss a lot of the early wonders and just gimp yourself. Not advisable for deity and still a sub-par strategy on immortal-.

More on-topic: I would agree with cseanny. GE for TGL and GA for GA. Or you could bulb the GA for music getting you another GA, which you could bulb for divine right if I'm not mistaken.

I also did a quick try for fun (think I got to 7 cities and 275AD lib in half an hour or so). I rushed the corn/horse/sheep spot east and then the ivory spot. Which ofcourse gimped my early tech rate. But later with the gold online and some cottages in capital (SiP, no mids) it went decent... but once you get alph or currency tech speed skyrockets by building wealth/research thx to all the hammers on this map.

gl with your game~

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I'm very interested to see how the Mathematics bulb pans out, if you do decide to go that route. I didn't run any Specialists before the Mids, because I wanted to get my money's worth from Rep. Bulbing Mathematics offers two chief benefits: increased likelihood of building the Hanging Gardens and an earlier Elephant rush. It has three big drawbacks: running Specialists pre-Rep is less efficient than post-Rep, your early expansion is slowed down (compounded by the fact that you are building one, perhaps two Stone wonders), and the Mathematics bulb means that you lose a Great Scientist to a weaker, early bulb.

I think you'd need to build the Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, and Elepult rush to justify the bulb. That's a lot to pull off, but, if done correctly, would surely win you the game.

Expanding on this, in context! I've played to T97 (475 BC).

Spoiler :

a) Without a super science capital, the opportunity cost of a Mathematics bulb (no Academy) is much lower than usual.
b) Not only does the Math bulb grant extra production, it's also a key tech to reach Calendar, Construction, Currency (dismissing Music & Civil Service that are way down the tech tree).
c) Following the Math bulb by researching Currency (which I did) means you'll have an easy time expanding: better chops and extra trade routes.

From a) and c), we can assert that d) bulbing Mathematics makes up for the low commerce / absence of cottageable land. It puts the player in a good position to trade with the AIs and avoid being out-teched.
Mathematics also decreases the opportunity cost of building the Pyramids. So it isn't clear at all that expansion is slower, despite running early scientists.

Thus... I didn't go straight for Elephants.
Two main reasons are:
- several cities remained to be settled.
- rushing is less economical than warring with tech and infra support.

Did toy around a little with research to stay in the trading game (e.g. backfilled Priesthood ; part-researched Construction, Calendar, Aesthetics).
What I did research was Metal Casting (monopoly, Colossus built on other landmass),
shortly before getting the 2nd GP.
Had it been an Engineer, surely Machinery would've been bulbed. Happenned to be a scientist, so Compass was bulbed and that's fine with me: it has a decent cost and is an inocuous trade bait.
Line of thought for instant bulb: better bulb now than wait 25 turns to open Education. I'd be reluctant to hold onto a GP for more than a handful of turns. Bulbing Compass also allowed to keep the monopoly on Metal Casting (and it's good news if it leads the neighbours towards Astronomy).

As of 475BC, I've completed the research of Horseback Riding and just traded for Construction: War Elephants can now be built.
Still 0 religion and 0 barracks but I'll have 3 Forges in 2 turns. 7 cities next turn with 8th and 9th incoming.
Forge+Police State should make for a very easy/efficient military build up. There's no way I'll tank my economy.
Next tech target is probably Feudalism or Machinery.
So... in case I haven't been super clear: I'd think that even though I didn't invade a neighbour, yet, and didn't build the Hanging Gardens either, the Mathematics bulb has already paid off and was justified

No screenshot but a save: I've got a deficient keyboard on my gaming computer so some things I can't do...

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Didn't obsolete shoe that We/SSE was viable for most maps on deity though?