The shoe is on the other foot

[Farm Boy]

To which the USA replies by hiding behind its Machiavellian world view. A world view with happens to benefit those with power!

When people steal and spy on you all the time, which they do, it takes a certain amount of foolishness to stand on principle. Laudable foolishness perhaps. That of the true believer. I think you're going to need to adjust as the years march on. The USA is a bunch of buttholes in a lot of ways, but it's less willing in some ways to use it's ill gotten information for power and advantage than the Middle Kingdom. Sharing will probably seem a better idea to all parties involved over time, much as I don't like that reality.

What are you talking about? This thing signed with Australia, Canada and so forth? Was that ever actually on the table for Germany?

Whatever I read could always be wrong, but it indicated that yes, it was.

 

[tokala]

Whatever I read could always be wrong, but it indicated that yes, it was.

Please, tell me more
That would be some news over here.

Not so long ago Germany was delegated to the "suspicious" category when not blindly following Bush into the Iraq adventure, never mind those fairly good relations to Russia.

And why should the US treat the German agencies as an equal partner? They are getting all our data anyway, while only giving select stuff they deem appropiate to us.
We didn't spy on them, while they were free to spy on us all they want without any interference.

Why give up such a convenient relationship?

 

[gay_Aleks]

Everyone is spying. And by everyone, I mean the USA. And since as we all know the Israelis follow the footsteps of their dear American friends, it only makes sense they'd also spy.

 

[Tahuti]

Please, tell me more
That would be some news over here.

Not so long ago Germany was delegated to the "suspicious" category when not blindly following Bush into the Iraq adventure, never mind those fairly good relations to Russia.

And why should the US treat the German agencies as an equal partner? They are getting all our data anyway, while only giving select stuff they deem appropiate to us.
We didn't spy on them, while they were free to spy on us all they want without any interference.

Why give up such a convenient relationship?

If I were German, I'd say Germany should break with the US in favour of Russia. There is nothing to gain. The US used to protect us from Communism, yet Russia definitely does not present such threat any longer. The main enemy of European countries today is radical Islam, which often exists within its borders. Why would you ally with a nation across the atlantic that spies needlessy on you, when you can ally with a nation that has more or less the same geopolitical concerns and is much closer to you?

Actually, as a Dutchman I think exactly the same.

 

[Quackers]

To your first point- if Israel shouldn't have that much faith in America, then should America have that much faith in Israel? Israel espionage goes beyond the norms of what is considered acceptable from allied countries. The US certainly doesn't go to the same lengths as Israel does.

Israel is probably one of the only countries on Earth where a blunder in foreign affairs threatens the entire existence of the Israeli state. I would expect a similiar level of vigilance by any other country which is surrounded by enemies and has been routinely invaded and terrorised from Day 1 of its existence.

I don't have an opinion whether the USA should "have faith" in Israel or not. It doesn't interest me.

 

[Farm Boy]

Please, tell me more
That would be some news over here.

Not so long ago Germany was delegated to the "suspicious" category when not blindly following Bush into the Iraq adventure, never mind those fairly good relations to Russia.

And why should the US treat the German agencies as an equal partner? They are getting all our data anyway, while only giving select stuff they deem appropiate to us.
We didn't spy on them, while they were free to spy on us all they want without any interference.

Why give up such a convenient relationship?

Much as I don't like looking holistically without the details of the picture, I'm not going to get the details here. Any details I do get are going to be incomplete, so I'm stuck looking at the whole thing and surmising. The order and flow of events are what I've got available to look at. The relative lack of hue and cry from the German government until populist outcry has forced the hand. Now don't get me wrong, I'm more sympathetic to populist outcry than most of the posters here and it might actually do some good. But you don't reason with populist outcry. It's not listening and it's not overly concerned with facts. Ride that train if you want, I do sometimes. Again, I could be wrong about the spy agreement thing, I don't remember where I read it. But the reactions and their timing indicate to me that the reality is probably something along those lines if not that exactly.

If I were German, I'd say Germany should break with the US in favour of Russia. There is nothing to gain. The US used to protect us from Communism, yet Russia definitely does not present such threat any longer. The main enemy of European countries today is radical Islam, which often exists within its borders. Why would you ally with a nation across the atlantic that spies needlessy on you, when you can ally with a nation that has more or less the same geopolitical concerns and is much closer to you?

Actually, as a Dutchman I think exactly the same.

Hey man, have at it. They've got the gas and they're closer than we are. They're also far more of a social conservative's dream partner than the USA. For all our faults of the last century we still have lots of baggage when it comes to effectively dealing with religious entities as a declared enemy entity.

 

[NASAROG]

Israel espionage goes beyond the norms of what is considered acceptable from allied countries. The US certainly doesn't go to the same lengths as Israel does.

Wait.. lolwut? you're kidding, right? right?!?!? RIGHT!!!

Very doubtful beyond some blustering for the camera by American politicians. It's not like it is the first time they've spied on us.

On us? We broke every convention with our spying tactics.

Israel is probably one of the only countries on Earth where a blunder in foreign affairs threatens the entire existence of the Israeli state. I would expect a similiar level of vigilance by any other country which is surrounded by enemies and has been routinely invaded and terrorised from Day 1 of its existence.

I don't have an opinion whether the USA should "have faith" in Israel or not. It doesn't interest me.

It's simple really. No matter what happens with our diplomatic ties, Israel is a forward base for the U.S. military. Plain and simple. Any of the muslim/arab (I know there is a distinction there) can have a change of leadership followed by chaos and more changes at the drop of a hat (Egypt/Syria/Pakistan) and look how it affects us. In it's 60+ years of existence, Israel has undergone many changes in leadership (bad ones of late), yet it's still an ally.

 

[bhsup]

On us? We broke every convention with our spying tactics.

I am guessing you missed what I was replying to.

 

[Paul in Saudi]

Well, the US is certainly Israel's ally. It is tough to think of how Israel is America's ally.

 

[NASAROG]

Well, the US is certainly Israel's ally. It is tough to think of how Israel is America's ally.

It's tough to think how the U.S. is anyones ally with all the spying and CIA ops around the world. The reality of allies isn't what we find in mass media. It's a very grey area.

I am guessing you missed what I was replying to.

Probably. These threads move too fast at times.