The Soviet Union

[Commy]

Imagine a Ukraine allowed to develop its economy freely - without the USSR's degenerate system holding it back.

This degenerate system creates Ukrainian heavy industry and military industry. And imagine what will be with Ukrainian industry without cheap Russian oil, benzine and gas

Don't forget it was on the Soviet Far East, which was sparely populated (due to the horrible weather), far of the centers of power and could serve as a buffer to a Chinese attack

Yeah, JAO was a strongest Soviet buffer to China!

Russia was not an empire. But it had emperor

Russia was (since 1725 to 1917), but USSR was not

 

[amadeus]

This degenerate system creates Ukrainian heavy industry and military industry.

The Germans and Japanese must be incredibly jealous.

And imagine what will be with Ukrainian industry without cheap Russian oil, benzine and gas

Successful?

Russia was (since 1725 to 1917), but USSR was not

Empire by actions, not by name.

 

[Commy]

The Germans and Japanese must be incredibly jealous.

Don't know about Germany and Japan, but Russian and Ukrainian tanks, rockets etc. are completing with American ones.

Successful?

Let's wait a little, and if Ukrainian Naftagaz can't make a contract with Russian Gazprom for Russian gas, you'll see, what kind of success will be

Empire by actions, not by name.

And USA? Is USA empire too?

 

[Babbler]

Yeah, JAO was a strongest Soviet buffer to China!

It was suppose to be a buffer, but was not successful.

 

[nonconformist]

And USA? Is USA empire too?

Was the USSR a representative democracy?

 

[Gelion]

Was the USSR a representative democracy?

Was Napoleon Green?

 

[amadeus]

Don't know about Germany and Japan, but Russian and Ukrainian tanks, rockets etc. are completing with American ones.

Still stuck in the Soviet mindset. Good economies aren't all tanks and tractors.

Let's wait a little, and if Ukrainian Naftagaz can't make a contract with Russian Gazprom for Russian gas, you'll see, what kind of success will be

Hopefully it won't be tainted by the myriad of gangsters that surround Putin.

And USA? Is USA empire too?

No.

 

[Commy]

Still stuck in the Soviet mindset. Good economies aren't all tanks and tractors.

But security and foreign commerce are.

No.

Why so? USA included Indians and Puerto-Rico against their will. Also it holds very agressive foreign politics. It use tortures. Its Empire of evil

 

[la cosa nostra]

This degenerate system creates Ukrainian heavy industry and military industry. And imagine what will be with Ukrainian industry without cheap Russian oil, benzine and gas

Likewise imagine the Russian economy without cheap agricultural and mineral supplies from Ukraine (in soviet times the Ukrainian SSR constituted 50% of the USSR's agricultural output).

Ukraine would have heavy industry and and military industry USSR or not, its pretty arrogant to think that the USSR was the only entity capable of this - for example look at Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia 1918-1945, they industrialized without the USSR didnt they?

 

[Kamilian]

Hmmmm there's now constant talking about "is USA not evil, too, then?" "are Japan and Germany jealous" and what-not... I don't think anyone was, at the beginning, talking about the USA being evil or not or being an empire or not, so I don't think (this is just my opinion) that saying "What about the USA that held Indians and Puerto Ricans under its rule? isn't that imperial?" is really much of a counter-argument. It doesn't address at all the question of whether Russia (Soviet or not) was/is an empire and does nothing to disprove the arguments of the people saying that the USSR (and Russia within it) was an empire.

That having been said, I do think that Russia (including both tsarist and Soviet times) was an empire. How did the Russian Empire gain so much land in Central Asia, the Caucasus, and what used to be the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? Sure, some of the political leaders allied and submitted willingly to the Tsars, and the eastern Ukraine, during the Cossack Uprising, the Hetmanate there agreed to join with Russia in the hopes of retaining the autonomy that was their goal (come on - the Cossacks revolted against Poland-Lithuania because they wanted their own state, not because they wanted to switch foreign governments from Polish to Russian: it would have been pointless because it would essentially have been a revolt against an empire to join an empire).

But not all the lands Russia acquired joined "voluntarily".
During the Three Partitions of Poland, only in the first one was a treaty signed by the King with the partitioning powers. In the Second one, the Russian government bribed some of the nobles with money and promise of power to attack the new constitutional monarchy, which was betrayed by Prussia and not strong enough to rollback the new Russo-Prussian occupation and annexation of more territory. The Third Partition finally occurred as a response to the Kosciuszko Uprising which was a last attempt to save the country. Were the people that came into Russian rule all happy and joyful that they could now be neighbors and friends with their eastern brethren? No. There's a reason that throughout the 1800s until the suppression of the January Uprising of 1863-1864 there was constant attempt at resistance and restoration of independence - because they did not want to be under Russian rule.
In the Trans-Caucasus, there was constant resistance from the people living there to try and push back the Russians and once Russia was entrenched in the region, resentment continued and occasionally flared. Unless that resistance was a gesture of love and fraternity, I would say that's imperialism on Russia's part.

Now, back to the main topic - was the Soviet Union imperialistic? Yes, I believe it was.
Yes, in 1917-1918 the Bolsheviks preached national self-determination for all peoples, but the hidden subtext was "as long as you're ruled by Bolshevik governments as well", and they expected worldwide revolution so that national self-determination was meant to be short-term, anyway.
In Byelorussia (Belarus), there was actually an independent Belarusian National Republic established (I think it is still functioning to this day, actually, claiming itself to be the true government) and the Byelorussian Bolsheviks did join with the Russian Republic in creating the USSR. In Ukraine, the situation was complex - there were two republics in existence in 1918-1919, at some point actually side-by-side. In eastern Ukraine, a Bolshevik government quickly sided with the Bolsheviks and welcomed the Red Army, but in the Kiev-centered western Ukraine, the Petlyura's government broke relations with the Bolshevik Russia and declared independence. Then came the Russo-Polish War and for a while, Petlyura allied with Poland, then fortunes reversed as the Red Army swept across Ukraine and even reached the Wisla and was miraculously routed at the Miracle of Wisla. Folloing that, the Riga treaty partitioned modern-day Belarus and Ukraine between Poland and the USSR. Now, the fact that independent governments established (or tried to) in those countries proves that they did not join the USSR all that willingly. Note that the USSR had a pure-democracy face, making referendums in places, but referendums were often falsified to expand and/or secure the USSR.
In Central Asia, the nations there tried to establish their own independence as well, such as the Kazakh "Alash Orda". By 1920, they were forcibly crushed and subjugated yet again under Russian rule, this time in the form of the USSR.
In the Trans-Caucasus, the situation was very unstable, but there, too, Georgians, Armenians, and Azeris established their own states, and even joined into a federation at some point to be able to resist the Russian resurgence that was on the horizon. As someone had already mentioned, the Red Army invaded and took over the region.

Now, before you say "well those countries had people willing to join the USSR"... Socialist parties were already operating across the world and the communist parties began as well. You can't say that the wishes of a few can justify Soviet Russia's forced re-absorption of its "frontier states" into what became the USSR as not being imperialist.
I mean in the USA, even, there were communists wanting to be friends with Moscow and have a worldwide USSR! Does that mean that if the USSR were ever to attack and succeed, that it was not committing an imperialist act, despite that many people did not want to be ruled by the Soviet? No. I'll go back to using Poland during the inter-war period, and during the Russo-Polish war. There were some Polish communists who wanted to be part of the USSR. But does that automatically mean that everyone in Poland wanted to be part of the USSR? That if the USSR absorbed Poland, it would be voluntary? No. Not even if the Bolsheviks installed those sympathizers as a transitional regime that would act as a representative body that would "vote" to join the USSR. Installing puppet regimes to do your bidding was, after WW1 and particularly during/after WW2, a new form of imperialism, and the Soviet Union subscribed to this new imperialism with vigor.
In 1939, when the Soviets occupied eastern Poland, they established the "Western Byelorussia" and "Western Ukraine" states and within a month of the occupation, their National Assemblies - which were made up of pro-Soviet Byelorussians, Ukrainians, and even Russians transported from the USSR into these two territories immediately in the wake of the invading troops - voted to approve a referendum to join the USSR, which had an almost-total turnout rate of eligible voters partipating (in the 90th percentile) and a similarly-high pro-USSR vote result (again - 90th percentile). Never mind that at the time of the referendums, those areas still had a substantial amount of Poles that did not want to be ruled by Moscow.
So installing puppets and faking referendums does not exactly qualify, in my opinion, as a benevolent "reunion"

Once the areas that temporarily detached from Russia during the Civil War were made part of the USSR, Russification efforts from back in the tsarist times were resumed fiercely. Efforts were made to constantly stamp out the other national groups' culture, through making Russian the official language, devastating and then slaving local economies to Moscow's currency, in some cases banning educational instruction in the local languages... But what am I saying? This isn't imperialism! That's being friendly to the non-Russians, right?

And someone already mentioned the deportations of minorities. If your idea of fraternal love is rounding up ethnic minorities, loading them into heat-less cattle-trains with, often, meager or nearly non-existent food provisions, and then transporting them across the country and dumping them in a new environment that they're not used to, where the locals already living there don't even speak a similar language, then you must be a vocal advocate of what they call "tough love".

Oh, and I am quite sure that, after WW2, all the countries that were made into puppets of the USSR really longed for suffering Stalinist terror in the first 10 or so years and then constant supervision and meddling by Soviet authorities in their own countries. Yes, those people that "disappeared" during the most repressive of periods must have really been saying "Thank God for Mother Russia" when they were being taken away by the state police forces. Because of course, that puppet status that befell the countries of Eastern Europe was not a method of imperialism - it was a sign of love and friendship that everyone should have been grateful for.

Yeah, right.

You know, there's a reason that when they got the chance, the national republics themselves seceded in 1990-1991 - they didn't want to be ruled by Moscow.

So tell me again how Russia and its brainchild the USSR were not imperialist?

 

[Zardnaar]

Dear homeyg,
the KGB bureau 957-14B with general responsibility for CFC welcomes you. Our comrades just received their just pile of orders to unveil the terrible truth about plans of USSR. It is our great pleasure to inform you that you were right. The Plan “World Domination” was put into effect when the head bosses of the One and the Only Communist Party of the Soviet Union with its head Gorbachev realized that the country is developed enough to go for a total and complete domination of the whole world.
In 1986 phase one was launched codenamed “Fool the Enemy”. Liberalization of USSR and its satellites (brotherly nations) went according to plan. Revolutionary catchwords of “perestroika” and glasnost’” convinced the world that USSR was changing for the better. Masterfully created opposition groups in the Eastern European Nations fulfilled their purpose of convincing the West that it was breaking away from Soviet grip. A prior economic crisis engineered by the Soviet Union in those countries was even aided by the evil regime of the United States with regard to patents and oil. The generals of the Afghan war were told not to intercept American supplies in order to loose the war convincingly and show that USSR was collapsing militarily. Plus the safety of Soviet agent Regan in Washington had to be preserved. Now when West was caught in the game it was time to start the second phase of operation “Fake Liberty”
Masterfully the first “leader” of the plan Gorbachev was replaced by cunning agent Yeltzin who brought the new slogan “take as much sovereignty as you can take!” The policy carried out had to purposes 1) list all unhappy with blessed communist rule 2)create an impression of the breaking Empire in the West. Both worked perfectly and KGB archives were filled with millions of new files. Little did new local leaders know that they are still controlled from Moscow and that they will be dealt with when the time is right,
In order to disguise the new phase of the plan KGB was renamed into FSB, USSR into Russia and Soviet people into Russians. Of course we had to keep in secret that the nature of all three was left the same.
In order to mask the creation and buildup of weapons of new age the government undergone a few extra plans such as “faked ruble crisis”, “faked fall in the standards of living” and “fake fall of authority and law”.
Skillful KGB (FBS see above) agents engineered a few ethnic crisis on the territory of the broken Empire. Two goals were thus served: one of creating problems for the new regimes and the other to further convince the world that USSR (Russia for reference see above) is not a superpower anymore and should not be feared. Chechen Wars (both 1st and second) served this particular task very well by compromising Russian (Read Soviet) military forces and making sure that the West thinks that they are no threat. Of course all these policies were followed by great number of deaths of Russians (read Soviet) citizens especially in the Caucasus, but it was a necessary sacrifice for world domination. The families will forgive us. Of course a great number of non-Soviet (Ukrainians, Georgians, Chechens and Moldavians read treacherous liberated citizens) were killed too during this plan, but it brings warmth to our Russian (Soviet hearts).
The second phase of the plan also included engineered break up of industries, creation of massive diseases and poverty-related problems as well as rise in crime and violence. Staged break up of health, education and life support system worked 110% to an extent that US grip on further Russian modernization lessened seeing that no country can get up from sop much destruction. KGB figures suggest that Russia is loosing more men per year than during the times of WW2 (you are welcome to disagree with these Red as you say “filthy” facts). Perhaps the plan was a bit overdone.
But now we are in our third stage which is called “Shock and Domination”. In 1999 the reign of Russian Tsar (read Communist Party Head) Yeltzin was over and a colonel of our organization Mr. Putin took power (we are very proud of the fact and keep reminding every one we see that our leader came from the same circle as we). He was not a very bright man trying to repair the damage to the country whose only purpose is to show to the world that USSR is gone and ruined. But no….. inside Russia there are millions and millions of secret bases where best citizens work for many hours for s single and most noble goal. But more on that later. It seems that the leader forgot that he rules only a staged country and started to go against the plan. However the impression once done cannot be undone especially while all Soviet-built machinery and houses are breaking apart from old age. His foolish actions lead to loss of credibility and face abroad and by fighting for what he thinks is a real country he further complicated relations with nearly completely fooled and disarmed West.
However this is a time for another story tomorrow. If you survive. The real USSR that was hiding behind a ruined country will rise today. Our doomsday weapons are ready, each of our soldiers is a soldier of the future ready to operate in any part of the world and kill in the name of happiness for all. We know the location of every armed unit in the world and on the orbit. 100,000 of rockets of new generation secretly manufactured and 24hs a day targeted at USA (well most anyway). The bombing will begin in 5 minutes. We love you all and will liberate you from your illusions very soon. God Bless USSR and all atheists around the world!
With greatest possible respect and pity
Responsible for Ideology on CFC
Gelion the Red

Ah crap. Back to the bomb shelter.

 

[garric]

I mean that seriously. Russia has been continuously expanding its territory since its beginning.

Pull your head out of the Kool Aide. If Russia has been always expanding, so has the United States. Ever heard of manifest destiny?

In fact, a Frenchman predicted in the 19th century that the USA and Russia will be the two world power ON ACCOUNT of their expansion.

Yes, Russia was an empire. So was America (Conquering land from Natives, driving West, a war with Mexico that took away more than half of the land mass, their various adventures in the ocean, the Monroe Doctorine and the invasions of many Latin American countries, it's all out there, look it up.). To the comment "How many USD did pay for Winner's propaganda". Winner, you're probably the most ignorant person I've ever seen on these forums. I don't see what your problem is.. are you trying to BLAME Russians alive today (or these forums at least) on the things that happened during the Cold War era? On Russia's imperialism?

It seems you are from the European Union, start acting like it, PLEASE.

 

[Winner]

Pull your head out of the Kool Aide. If Russia has been always expanding, so has the United States. Ever heard of manifest destiny?

And here is it again. "Look at America, they've expanded too!!"

Yes, they did. But it is not comparable with Russian expansion. If the USA expanded in the way Russia did, Canada, Mexico and pretty much the whole South America would be now occupied. Russia expands without limits, it's goal is to have as much of territory as possible.

In fact, a Frenchman predicted in the 19th century that the USA and Russia will be the two world power ON ACCOUNT of their expansion.

US became a superpower not because its expansion, but because of its socio-economical system and a bit of luck.

Yes, Russia was an empire. So was America (Conquering land from Natives, driving West, a war with Mexico that took away more than half of the land mass, their various adventures in the ocean, the Monroe Doctorine and the invasions of many Latin American countries, it's all out there, look it up.).

No, the US was not an empire. It's a federation. You can find the differences between these two concepts in dictionary.

To the comment "How many USD did pay for Winner's propaganda". Winner, you're probably the most ignorant person I've ever seen on these forums.

Thanks. You can form an anti-fanclub with Gelion and other Russian nationalists on this forum

I don't see what your problem is.. are you trying to BLAME Russians alive today (or these forums at least) on the things that happened during the Cold War era? On Russia's imperialism?

Exactly I had this discussion with Gelion once and he said almost the same thing and asked, why I don't say the same about Germans. I replied, that they have changed, coped with their past, made apologies, compensated the victims. They are now democratic, modern and peaceful nation, so I can't blame them for their past. On the other hand, Russians still act like nothing bad has happened. They still follow imperial foreign policy, they still don't have democratic government, they still refuse to accept the evil that was commited by them in the past and cope with it. Some of them even defend the USSR

It seems you are from the European Union, start acting like it, PLEASE.

You can go to hell. You're not the one who sets a standard for proper EU behaviour. In fact, there is not such a thing, in contrast with Russia

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

@ Kamilian

Have you just cut and paste a whole section of an old history essay?

 

[Kozmos]

The USA is an empire....just a different kind of it.

 

[la cosa nostra]

And here is it again. "Look at America, they've expanded too!!"

Yes, they did. But it is not comparable with Russian expansion. If the USA expanded in the way Russia did, Canada, Mexico and pretty much the whole South America would be now occupied. Russia expands without limits, it's goal is to have as much of territory as possible.

Its more than comperable to Russia, the USA was just as imperialistic and expansionist as Russia, the difference was that there were relitively stronger armies to oppose early US expansion.

Ever heard of Texas, California or here's a giveaway .. "NEW MEXICO" , not to mention ofcourse Puerto Rico, Guam, Midway, Hawaii, the Phillipenes etc. One can really go on and on, and believe me if the USA could've taken S.America they would've (why do you think theres so much US intervention in Panama, Nicuragua etc.), why do you think Chavez is seen as such a threat or that the US vehemiently supported Pinochet. Actaully now that you think about it, the USA has been more expansionist than Russia.

US became a superpower not because its expansion, but because of its socio-economical system and a bit of luck.

No they became a superpower becuase of their expansion (i.e. the slave economy) and becuase they made quite a bit of power and money from WWI and WWII (while all the other powers were bleeding to death)

No, the US was not an empire. It's a federation. You can find the differences between these two concepts in dictionary.

Call it whatever you want, to this day it has one of the largest colonial itineries in the world.

Exactly I had this discussion with Gelion once and he said almost the same thing and asked, why I don't say the same about Germans. I replied, that they have changed, coped with their past, made apologies, compensated the victims. They are now democratic, modern and peaceful nation, so I can't blame them for their past. On the other hand, Russians still act like nothing bad has happened. They still follow imperial foreign policy, they still don't have democratic government, they still refuse to accept the evil that was commited by them in the past and cope with it. Some of them even defend the USSR

Agreed, but, the USA has not apologized either, incase you havent noticed, Germany is no longer a superpower.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

The US is not an empire, it is a democratically maintained federation of states. It meddles in foreign affairs, but any nation with their level of power would. The fact that it has actually reduced it's control over foreign countries while it's power expanded is a giveaway.

An empire conquers, the US sets things up as it sees fit and has no desire to directly control other countries or conquer fresh territory.

Do not compare Puerto Rico to the Ukraine and don't try to change the subject away from the USSR.

Also, why is this not in the history forum? The discussion here is clearly more rooted in the past than of the current political climate.

 

[Darkness]

You can go to hell.

You know, without the flame your post could've been construed as an argument, though faulty, misguided and incomplete at best. Now it's just a rant.

 

[la cosa nostra]

The US is not an empire, it is a democratically maintained federation of states. It meddles in foreign affairs, but any nation with their level of power would. The fact that it has actually reduced it's control over foreign countries while it's power expanded is a giveaway.

An empire conquers, the US sets things up as it sees fit and has no desire to directly control other countries or conquer fresh territory.

Do not compare Puerto Rico to the Ukraine and don't try to change the subject away from the USSR.

Also, why is this not in the history forum? The discussion here is clearly more rooted in the past than of the current political climate.

Pick up some history books and start learning. Here is the United States' war record over the last 100 years:


PHILIPPINES, 1898 - 1910: seizes from Spain, 600,000 Filipinos killed
PUERTO RICO, 1898: seizes from Spain
PANAMA, 1901 - 14: separates country from Colombia and annexes canal zone
HONDURAS, 1903: US marines intervene against revolution
NICARAGUA, 1912 - 33: 20-year occupation and war against guerrillas
HAITI, 1914 - 34: occupation
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, 1916 - 24: occupation
CUBA, 1917 - 33: military occupation, made into economic protectorate
RUSSIA, 1917 - 22: troops sent five times to try to overthrow revolution
YUGOSLAVIA, 1919: marines intervene against Serbs
PANAMA, 1925: marines suppress general strike
CHINA, 1927 - 34: marines stationed throughout the country
EL SALVADOR, 1932: warships sent during revolt
JAPAN, 1945: firebombs Tokyo and other cities, drops atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
PUERTO RICO, 1950: independence rebellion crushed
KOREA, 1950 - 53: US and South Korea fight China and North Korea to stalemate. US threatens to use nuclear bombs. At least two million Korean civilians killed or wounded
IRAN, 1953: CIA overthrows democracy
GUATEMALA, 1954: CIA directs invasion after government nationalized land belonging to US United Fruit company
LEBANON, 1956: US troops land
VIETNAM, 1960 - 75: two million Vietnamese killed in longest US war
INDONESIA, 1965: one million killed in CIA-assisted coup
GUATEMALA, 1966: troops intervene
CAMBODIA, 1969 - 75: US carpet-bombs. Two million killed by years of bombing and starvation
CHILE, 1973: CIA-backed coup overthrows democratically elected government
ANGOLA, 1976 - 92: CIA assists South African backed rebels
LIBYA, 1981: two Libyan jets shot down
EL SALVADOR, 1981 - 92: troops and air power assist death squads, 75,000 people killed
NICARAGUA, 1981 - 90: CIA directs Contra invasions
LEBANON, 1982 - 84: US forces intervene, navy shells Beirut
HONDURAS, 1983 - 89: US troups build bases for death squads
GRENADA, 1983: US invasion
LIBYA, 1986: capital Tripoli bombed in effort to kill President Gadaffi
IRAN, 1987: Iranian passenger jets shot down over Persian Gulf
PANAMA, 1989 - 90: invasion, thousands of civilians killed
GULF WAR, 1990 - 91: US-led coalition kills 100,000 Iraqis. Post war sanctions kill an estimated one million civilians in the following ten years
SOMALIA, 1992 - 94: US-led United Nations occupation
EX-YUGOSLAVIA, 1995: bombs Serbs and assists ethnic cleansing
SUDAN, 1998: bombs pharmaceutical factory
IRAQ, 1998: four days of air strikes, raids continue until present day
SERBIA 1989: 78 days of NATO air strikes
AFGHANISTAN, 2001: US-led war kills thousands
IRAQ, 2002/3: ...

case closed

 

[~Corsair#01~]

Fighting wars abroad isn't really imperialism, since the US doesn't actually conquer these countries, like the USSR did.