The Soviet Union

[Bugfatty300]

They don't, which was my point...

But please do tell me which other countries constitute your definition of half the world?

I was responding sarcastically to La Cosa Nostra's post that half the world hates America. Thus the other half must like the US. It wasn't meant be taken literally. Did you not know that?

Why don't you ask him was constitutes half the world? North Korea and Iran maybe? He's the one who brought up that statistic.

 

[Darkness]

I was responding sarcastically to La Cosa Nostra's post that half the world hates America. Thus the other half must like the US. It wasn't meant be taken literally. Did you not know that?

That's sad....
Now your putting words in his mouth (and in bold too... )

He said dislike, which is nowhere near hate. That's something else altogether...

Don't start twisting someone's words. That's just bad manners, not to mention sad.
If you can't win the discussion in a fair way, don't discuss at all.

 

[Bugfatty300]

That's sad....
Now your putting words in his mouth (and in bold too... )

He said dislike, which is nowhere near hate. That's something else altogether...

Don't start twisting someone's words. That's just bad manners, not to mention sad.
If you can't win the discussion in a fair way, don't discuss at all.

Ok so now you know that I was responding to him? Good.

 

[The_Harbinger]

“Russia has always been the most faithful, reliable and consistent defender of the interests of the Islamic world. Russia has always been the best and most reliable partner and ally." President Putin, Grozny, December 2005.

 

[nonconformist]

“Russia has always been the most faithful, reliable and consistent defender of the interests of the Islamic world. Russia has always been the best and most reliable partner and ally." President Putin, Grozny, December 2005.

*Cough*Afghanistan*cough*

 

[Kozmos]

*cough*history*cough*

 

[Winner]

Its more than comperable to Russia, the USA was just as imperialistic and expansionist as Russia, the difference was that there were relitively stronger armies to oppose early US expansion.

Ever heard of Texas, California or here's a giveaway .. "NEW MEXICO" , not to mention ofcourse Puerto Rico, Guam, Midway, Hawaii, the Phillipenes etc. One can really go on and on, and believe me if the USA could've taken S.America they would've (why do you think theres so much US intervention in Panama, Nicuragua etc.), why do you think Chavez is seen as such a threat or that the US vehemiently supported Pinochet. Actaully now that you think about it, the USA has been more expansionist than Russia.

I think that California or Texas cannot be compared with the nations subjugated by Russia. There was no Texan or Californian nation in that time. As I said, the whole North American expansion is something completely different.

No they became a superpower becuase of their expansion (i.e. the slave economy) and becuase they made quite a bit of power and money from WWI and WWII (while all the other powers were bleeding to death)

You said it yourself. Their capitalist economy was the strongest and with bit of luck (WW1 + WW2), they have became the most powerfull country. Not because they annexed New Mexico or Phillippines.

Call it whatever you want, to this day it has one of the largest colonial itineries in the world.

You mean some islands in Pacific. Oh well then

Agreed, but, the USA has not apologized either, incase you havent noticed, Germany is no longer a superpower.

What does have the superpower status to do with the need of apology? Russia still thinks that the world owes it something. But it is the other way round - they owe the rest of the world for what they committed.

 

[Winner]

You know, without the flame your post could've been construed as an argument, though faulty, misguided and incomplete at best. Now it's just a rant.

I'd say my reaction was appropriate.

 

[Darkness]

I think that California or Texas cannot be compared with the nations subjugated by Russia. There was no Texan or Californian nation in that time. As I said, the whole North American expansion is something completely different.

Wrong!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas

Texas was an independent nation before joining the US (albeit very short).

I'd say my reaction was appropriate.

Yes, telling people who don't agree with you to go to hell seems very appropriate...

 

[Winner]

Wrong!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas

Texas was an independent nation before joining the US (albeit very short).

Although the Americans tend to confuse it, "nation" is different from "country". Texas was an independent country, but Texans were not a nation in European sense.

Yes, telling people who don't agree with you to go to hell seems very appropriate...

No, I didn't send him to hell because he disagrees with me, but because he tried to lecture me about what does it mean to be European. That was clearly an personal attack on me, which cannot remain unanswered. Besides, it was a very stupid comment.

 

[Darkness]

Although the Americans tend to confuse it, "nation" is different from "country". Texas was an independent country, but Texans were not a nation in European sense.

Uhmmmm, according to dictionary.com a nation is the same as a country.

Country:

coun·try ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kntr)
n. pl. coun·tries

A nation or state.
The territory of a nation or state; land.
The people of a nation or state; populace: The whole country will profit from the new economic reforms.
The land of a person's birth or citizenship: Foreign travel is restricted in his country.
A region, territory, or large tract of land distinguishable by features of topography, biology, or culture: hill country; Bible country.
An area or expanse outside cities and towns; a rural area: a vacation in the country.
Law. A jury.
Informal. Country music.

Nation:

na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nshn)
n.

A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
The government of a sovereign state.
A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: “Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity” (Robert Conquest).

A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.

 

[Kamilian]

@ Kamilian

Have you just cut and paste a whole section of an old history essay?

lol no


i'm starting to think that this thread belongs more in the World History forum...

And, by the way, an imperialistic country does not need to call itself the "So-And-So Empire" to be imperialistic. If you say that the US was not imperialistic just because it's a federal democratic republic, then you're basically saying that the USSR also was not imperialistic because it, too, was (constitutionally) a federation.
When Rome was still the "Roman Republic", for instance, it was imperialistic, expanding to gain more territory, constantly, even before the end of that republican period, when it was not yet oficially referred to as an Empire ("Imperium").
When France was in its Third Republic, it still was imperialistic as it had annexed as colonies lands in Indochina and Africa. Yet it, too, was at the time called a Republic, not an empire.

 

[garric]

Go to hell.

You can go to hell sir. I'm an American citizen, by the way, though I have Russian, British, and New Zealand citizenship.

Trying to blame so called "evil", which happened 50 or so years ago, on regular citizens its ludicrous. Do you even know what you're talking about? It seems not. Please, you have no sense what so ever. I'm sure you think that a regular Mr. Ivan off the street is actually a communist plotter in disguise, with a plan to take over the EU, but that's not how real life works.

I've said it before and I've said it again, trying to keep a grudge against MODERN Russians over what the COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT did 50 years ago is just ignorance and prejudice. I'd expect someone from EU to have an open mind, so I shall not consider you a real EU citizen.

 

[Winner]

Uhmmmm, according to dictionary.com a nation is the same as a country.

Maybe in the American meaning of that word. But read what you posted - nation is a group of people, which can, but don't have to, live in an independent country. For example Scotish nation is not independent.

What I want to say is, that there was no national identity in Texas, as well as in many other annexed territories in North America. Basically, it was a desert with few towns and few native tribes. Expansion there is very easy, actually.

The point is, that Russia expanded not into some wasteland where nobody lived. Russia expanded also into densely populated Central and Eastern Europe, subjugating sovereign nations and countries. That's totally unacceptable and in fact, that is basics of imperialism.

The USSR was just Russia with new rulers and new trademark. Nothing more.

 

[Winner]

You can go to hell sir. I'm an American citizen, by the way, though I have Russian, British, and New Zealand citizenship.

So what?

Trying to blame so called "evil", which happened 50 or so years ago, on regular citizens its ludicrous. Do you even know what you're talking about? It seems not. Please, you have no sense what so ever. I'm sure you think that a regular Mr. Ivan off the street is actually a communist plotter in disguise, with a plan to take over the EU, but that's not how real life works.

That's your words, not mine. Please don't try to guess what I think and focus on what I write here:

In case you haven't notice, the USSR - the Evil Empire, as called by your former president - dissolved just 15 years ago. Then, I don't think that a regular Mr. Ivan is my enemy, communist plotter or whatever. I say, that Russians as a nation didn't come to the terms with their past in the way the Germans did. Germans had to earn their respect after the WW2 and it took several decades. Russians on the other hand think, that with the fall of USSR, there is nobody to blame for its crimes.

What I want from them is to accept their past and work on the reconciliation, give up their imperialist ambitions (=stop interfering into Ukraine, Belarus, Caucasus, Central Asia without the broader international mandate) and stop worshiping their leaders. Only truly liberal, peacefull and democratic Russia can be accepted in Europe as a civilized nation.

I've said it before and I've said it again, trying to keep a grudge against MODERN Russians over what the COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT did 50 years ago is just ignorance and prejudice. I'd expect someone from EU to have an open mind, so I shall not consider you a real EU citizen.

I've made my points clear, if you don't understand, well, nothing is perfect. You can rest assured, that I absolutely don't care about what you think of me.

 

[Darkness]

Maybe in the American meaning of that word. But read what you posted - nation is a group of people, which can, but don't have to, live in an independent country. For example Scotish nation is not independent.

Why do you keep tossing "American" my way?
I'm European...
But I'm fairly sure that a nation or a country means the same in both the US and the UK.

What I want to say is, that there was no national identity in Texas, as well as in many other annexed territories in North America. Basically, it was a desert with few towns and few native tribes. Expansion there is very easy, actually.

Yes, there was...
The people were called Texans (still are ), and quite few of them thought enough of their nation to fight an overwhelming Mexican army for 11 days (even though it killed all of them) at the Alamo, which is now a state monument in downtown San Antonio.

What I want from them is to accept their past and work on the reconciliation, give up their imperialist ambitions (=stop interfering into Ukraine, Belarus, Caucasus, Central Asia without the broader international mandate) and stop worshiping their leaders. Only truly liberal, peacefull and democratic Russia can be accepted in Europe as a civilized nation.

Don't give me that kind of bull****! This is really measuring with two sticks! The US does exactly the same, and you see their ways different?

 

[Gelion]

^^Winner after your comment that US are the "good guys" and "Russkies the bad guys" in our last debate I dont see how we got your views wrong. I know your newspeak and doublethink are very heartwarming and satisfying, but they are nevertheless "Newspeak" and "Doublethink".
You claim to be studying international relations (just as me), but yet fail to understand simple concepts of "geopolitics" and "ideology". All your comments and like "Russians are to blame for all Soviet faults", denial of Nazi crimes, denial of your own nations involvement in "unhuman regime" (or you think all your governors were Russkies?), desire NOT to distinguish criminals from victims together with doublestandarts and lack of elemental human pity show in your every post
(no offence, just saying how I think you think, you are welcome to professionaly discharge all that).
I quialify your state of mind and russophobic and fanatic and I am sure it is seen by many people in your posts.

Kamilan regarding the Russo-Polish relations I do agree that they are full of blood and bitterness. The only comment I'd like to make is that a lot of the tensions at the beginning were due to the spread of Catholicism and Polish-Lithuanian conquest of weakened Russian lands during the time of principalities in Russia (Kievan Rus). Byelorussians, Ukranians, Russians and some minor "branches" of Eastern Slavs are largely the result of Polish-Lithuanian influences on Western Kievan Russia. After Russia felt strong again it moved West largely finding support among most non Polish and Lithuanian peoples mostly because it was seen as protector or Orthodoxy and a force re-uniting them with their old traditions. I do not deny the positive influence that Poland and Lithuania had on the Russian lands, but IMO the history of Russian-Polish relations (also during the time of troubles) should be also noted. Russia won in the conflict over Eastern Europe and as a result all Polish misfortunes started. But from a geopolitical point of view the struggle was meant to end with one side winning or the other. XXI century is perhaps the first chance where due to inability to wage war Russians and Poles can start to understand each other better. That also means forming a more pacific image in people's minds..... (newspapers included )

 

[Winner]

Why do you keep tossing "American" my way?
I'm European...
But I'm fairly sure that a nation or a country means the same in both the US and the UK.

OK, so it's anglo-saxon I've explained the difference between these concepts, so I don't think there is anything more to discuss.

Yes, there was...
The people were called Texans (still are ), and quite few of them thought enough of their nation to fight an overwhelming Mexican army for 11 days (even though it killed all of them) at the Alamo, which is now a state monument in downtown San Antonio.

No. Don't you see that difference? Living in an independent country doesn't mean you're part of a nation. Kurds living in Turkey are not Turks. They are distinct nation, but they don't have an independent country. That's an example, I hope you now see what I mean.

Don't give me that kind of bull****! This is really measuring with two sticks! The US does exactly the same, and you see their ways different?

Only people from countries, which were never attacked/occupied by Russians, can say such a nonsense.

 

[Winner]

^^Winner after your comment that US are the "good guys" and "Russkies the bad guys" in our last debate I dont see how we got your views wrong. I know your newspeak and doublethink are very heartwarming and satisfying, but they are nevertheless "Newspeak" and "Doublethink".
You claim to be studying international relations (just as me), but yet fail to understand simple concepts of "geopolitics" and "ideology". All your comments and like "Russians are to blame for all Soviet faults", denial of Nazi crimes, denial of your own nations involvement in "unhuman regime" (or you think all your governors were Russkies?), desire NOT to distinguish criminals from victims together with doublestandarts and lack of elemental human pity show in your every post
(no offence, just saying how I think you think, you are welcome to professionaly discharge all that).
I quialify your state of mind and russophobic and fanatic and I am sure it is seen by many people in your posts.

Yeah, whatever. You can say what you want, I don't care about your accusations anymore. I am not going to lose my time with hopeless cases.

 

[Darkness]

OK, so it's anglo-saxon I've explained the difference between these concepts, so I don't think there is anything more to discuss.

Not anglo-saxon either... I'm Dutch.
There is no difference. You simply interpret them differently.

No. Don't you see that difference? Living in an independent country doesn't mean you're part of a nation. Kurds living in Turkey are not Turks. They are distinct nation, but they don't have an independent country. That's an example, I hope you now see what I mean.

No, I do not see the difference.
Texans are distincly different from other Americans (no disrespect intended to either group!). They may not be seen as a nation anymore, but they surely were in the 1830's.
I've been to the Alamo this summer and the place is just packed with pure "Texanness". The people who fought and died there definately fought for their Texan Republic, for their nation.

Only people from countries, which were never attacked/occupied by Russians, can say such a nonsense.

That's just bitterness speaking. Move on. The damage can never be repaired, not even by excuses or damage-payments or whatever. Just don't dig yourself a deeper hole by being bitter about it.

I am not going to lose my time with hopeless cases.

Amen! (and I'm an atheist... )
Though I'm not aiming that sentiment at Gelion...