The Spice Thread

[Ahriman]

For the human player, do we really want to *prevent* it?

No. There are certain circumstances where founding on a bonus makes sense, to include as many other resources and mesa tiles as possible.
I'm leery of absolutely forbidding it to the AI too. We could ban groundwater, but not *every* resource.

 

[Ahriman]

FWIW, check out the succession game going on (Epic gamespeed); nearly turn 200 and we have almost no spice.

So the AI's lack of spice by turn 100 or so is not an indication of weak AI; as humans we have other priorities too.

I think its fine that spice doesn't become important until the midgame.

 

[Slvynn]

I think that spice should be sagnificant alwasy6. At any stage. That is how it is in books. In films. In games. I think it should be more importanmt as concept. And, dont tell me it is not important or try to convince me. I am ok with it as it is, but still, iu think it should be bit more than it is now. Its just right. Atm spice is too weak compared to importance of it in books.

 

[Deliverator]

Since david has suggested focusing on Wonders next perhaps he can make the SDK change to allow some varied Spice powered wonders.

 

[Slvynn]

Since david has suggested focusing on Wonders next perhaps he can make the SDK change to allow some varied Spice powered wonders.

good idea, indeed.
Also there was not any change to refeneries that add commerce points to each spice tile harvested per empire.
There was alot of discussion, and not all in this thread.

 

[Ahriman]

I think that spice should be sagnificant alwasy6. That is how it is in books.

In the books there hasn't been a disaster that has cut off contact with the rest of the galaxy. What value spice, if you can't export it?

I don't think there is any way, given the inherent exponentiation factors, to have spice be important in the early game and not overpowered in the mid-late game, AND still have normal tiles work. Most gdp still has to come from having people in cities working tiles (or specialists).

 

[Slvynn]

It should not interfere with improving tiles. Perhaps some bonus for just tiles owned. If not then some more bonuses for tiles harvested. But it is weak now. In books, spice is much more potent. Life-extension. Spice-Agony. Spice-fibers (various industrial uses). I can add more of them....just no need - thats enough.

 

[Ahriman]

It should not interfere with improving tiles

?
Of course it does. You only have so many workers. If they're building harvesters, then they're not building improvements. Its an opportunity cost.

Perhaps some bonus for just tiles owned

I dislike this.
a) Logically, spice doesn't do any good unless you harvest it.
b) Its lame if you get the benefit without having to divert effort into building harvesters.
This is like David's problem with putting KH into the tech tree; if you want a benefit, you should have to divert some effort towards getting it, not just get lucky by having spice blows near you.

 

[Slvynn]

?
Of course it does. You only have so many workers. If they're building harvesters, then they're not building improvements. Its an opportunity cost.


I dislike this.
a) Logically, spice doesn't do any good unless you harvest it.
b) Its lame if you get the benefit without having to divert effort into building harvesters.
This is like David's problem with putting KH into the tech tree; if you want a benefit, you should have to divert some effort towards getting it, not just get lucky by having spice blows near you.

You didnt understood me, perhaps i was not so clear.

The fixing of spice should not change Yeld/ improvement priorities.
1. It should increase and encourage player to own spice tiles more at later stage.
2. whatever, there just need more bonuses.
You arguing with some points but leaving main idea aside - Spice is too weak in the mod. Much less important that it apears in books.

 

[Ahriman]

You didnt understood me, perhaps i was not so clear.

The fixing of spice should not change Yeld/ improvement priorities.

I still don't understand what you're trying to say.

You arguing with some points but leaving main idea aside - Spice is too weak in the mod

I don't think that spice is that weak, I have posted screenshots of cases where spice was powering 1/3 of my economy. Its weak in the early game, but I don't see this as a problem.

I think all we need are some commerce tile yield increases from harvester improvement with spice industry tech (or civic), and then a handful of buildings and wonders that give benefits with more spice, like in the sdk modification thread.

That will be plenty.

 

[Slvynn]

I think all we need are some commerce tile yield increases from harvester improvement with spice industry tech (or civic), and then a handful of buildings and wonders that give benefits with more spice, like in the sdk modification thread.

That will be plenty.

That is thing i telling you about. why arguing then?
Thats a solution, i talking about. Why denying it?
Thats what i trying to say. Those 2 things.
Necessity of moderate to light boosting of spice.
And opposition to fact that game's spice is less important in noticeable amount than it is in the books.

 

[Ahriman]

Now you're just being annoying.

Thats what i trying to say. Those 2 things.

Neither of these things will improve spice in the early game. So, your statement directly contradicts:

I think that spice should be sagnificant alwasy6

Which is the one I have a problem with.

 

[davidlallen]

Let's all stay calm here also, please.

 

[Slvynn]

I am not being annoying , but perceiving the right balance.
also, please explain how my statement contradicts this:

I think that spice should be sagnificant alwasy6

Refinery is early game building.

Also, i can call "annoying" behaviour, where one just deny right full observation of another, without any basement to such denial. I am no a first who tells that spice is weak atm, and not a last. The thing, which is wrong, though, is conditioning of such poster as i am, from your side. If i sounded to harsh in that other thread, please forgive me, But also, please get a note, that sometimes i can say " Ok, i was wrong, you have a point". And i think that is good thing to know to do for everyone.
All my point was ithat spice is still weak.
You disconnected sentences in my posts, and denied them separately. But the point was plain and simple - Spice need boost. Why to crush my sayings without any appreciation of my observation, effort, and, at least, intelligence i put into this matter?
You, also, can use a logic for counting "how stupid this lad might be". Atm my feeling that your result is too high. May be it is really, but i would halve that result, according to replies i get.

 

[Hived]

FWIW, check out the succession game going on (Epic gamespeed); nearly turn 200 and we have almost no spice.

So the AI's lack of spice by turn 100 or so is not an indication of weak AI; as humans we have other priorities too.

I think its fine that spice doesn't become important until the midgame.

I'm okay with that, since I know the background story (or let's say, the possible backgrounds ) of DW.
...but also Slvynn is right: The spice IS the ressource on Dune and should be the most important thing, at the latest, when "offworld-trade" is researched (just following your argument with no offplanet-contact in beginning)... but as the succession game shows (and many other games, including most terraforming victories, as they often have only few spice), it doesn't matter that much, if you have much spice, few or even no spice at all... maybe raising (late?) tech-costs could solve the problem. Doing that in combination with increasing spice-output, the commerce output AND the "offworld-troop-recruitment" would profit.

Since david has suggested focusing on Wonders next perhaps he can make the SDK change to allow some varied Spice powered wonders.

Also the implementation of regular buildings (maybe a market-orientated building giving 1 gold/spice or something - compare it with tribunal, giving mostly 3-4 gold savings) wouldn't be that bad IMO.

All in all, spice still doesn't mean too much in game, as there are just some "spice-tile-upgrades", but no spice-"trading", exporting, storing... being honest, also a (spice-) refinery should not give +25% hammers, but +25% commerce/gold... or what else if not spice is refinated with the refinery building? The refinery could be the first spice-building, giving +5% (or +10% if too weak) commerce/gold for each spice ressource in stock.

Edit: Having ONE game, where 1/3 of economy (let's say commerce ) is powered by spice, is not a strong enough arguement against spice improvement IMO... I'd even say, it's an argument FOR spice improvement. I read it like: "in most games, spice makes up at most a third of economy. Most economy is granted via cottages or non-spice ressources."
IMO there should be games (not all, but it should be possible), where at least 2/3 of economy is running via spice... especially, as soon as the guild has "returned" to the planet.

Greetz, Hived.

 

[Ahriman]

Refinery is early game building.

The refinery building is powerful enough already. It does not need any further buffs.
Nobody called you stupid.
The rest of your comments are almost incomprehensible.
"Atm my feeling that your result is too high. May be it is really, but i would halve that result, according to replies i get. "??

The spice IS the ressource on Dune and should be the most important thing

If you're running a spice economy, rather than a terraforming economy, then spice *is* already very important.
Spice should not be the most important thing if you're a terraformer.

maybe a market-orientated building giving 1 gold/spice or something

1 gold per spice would be far too high. That would be +20 gold in every city with 20 spice resources, or +140 gold per turn with 7 cities and 20 spice resources.
A magnitude more like 0.15 gold per spice is more reasonable.

it doesn't matter that much, if you have much spice, few or even no spice at all... maybe raising (late?) tech-costs could solve the problem

Sure it matters. Without any spice, your economy will be much smaller, even more so once we add a few more of these buildings.

honest, also a (spice-) refinery should not give +25% hammers, but +25% commerce/gold

This is an interesting idea. It is a little problematic I think how lategame you have to go before you get a commerce booster building. Maybe this should be a commerce building instead of a hammer building, and we could create another hammer booster building somewhere else, maybe at crystal materials or sand farms (both currently very weak techs).
Rename the refinery "spice refinery", and have it give a trader rather than a techman specialist slot, and then create a hammer booster building. Workshop, maybe? Factory, and rename the current factory to manufacturing plant?

but no spice-"trading", exporting

I think the idea is this is what the house spice firm represents. This is what you're doing with the spice.

 

[Slvynn]

The rest of your comments are almost incomprehensible.
"Atm my feeling that your result is too high. May be it is really, but i would halve that result, according to replies i get. "??

I am sure this sounds proper, but i will explain if further.
In plain words - i think, i feel from tone of your posts, that you undestimate my effort and intelligence i've put into testing runs, games, reading and understanding books (yep i just finished reading all missing books and re-reading of ones i had read is started.) .
Also as well i am not alone, and did not exposed myself as being deliberately incomprehensible. Sorry if i make typos and all that, and have bad spelling at times, but i am not native english speaker, still i know (i think) how to use my language even it is not my native one.

You, also, can use a logic for counting "how stupid this lad might be". Atm my feeling that your result is too high. May be it is really, but i would halve that result, according to replies i get.

that is about feeling i get when reading your numerous "denial 99%" posts, with notice that alot of points been ignored.
Peace man, i got tired from this arguing. I'll better create few colorful pixels and feel much better than i am feeling now..

 

[Ahriman]

You need to realize that people disagreeing with you is not a personal attack or insult. Its just disagreement.

Good design comes from critically evaluating ideas, not from adopting changes uncritically out of "respect".

I appreciate that you are not a native English speaker, and that your English skills are far better than mine are in your language (Russian?) or anything other than English. However, your English is often very difficult to understand.

 

[davidlallen]

Edit: Having ONE game, where 1/3 of economy (let's say commerce ) is powered by spice, is not a strong enough arguement against spice improvement IMO... I'd even say, it's an argument FOR spice improvement. I read it like: "in most games, spice makes up at most a third of economy. Most economy is granted via cottages or non-spice ressources."

I appreciate this input from the folks who are new to the mod as of 1.6. In earlier versions such as 1.3 - 1.5, we have tweaked the value of spice up and down several times. I am not sure it is perfect, but we have found a problem when it was higher.

The design goal was to basically match vanilla archipelago commerce rates at turn 255 on standard speed. From many autoplays of vanilla archipelago, an average AI player has commerce in the 200-250 range. The problem is that today in DW, a good human player can easily get 300-400 points of commerce per turn by turn 255, while the AI can only get 150-200 points. Having a high commerce translates into high research rates, going quickly through the tech tree, and/or high treasury (gold), which can be used for many things.

So, simply raising the commerce rate of spice will make things too easy for the human player with these settings, and it further increases the gap between the human player and the AI player. Ahriman is giving one data point, but hopefully this post tells a little more about the history. It is more than one data point. We have tweaked it several times and tested.

You may reply, "Just make the AI smarter". I agree, but I am not smart enough to make the AI smarter. We have discussed this recently also in the 1.6 feedback thread. Please do make suggestions, but if possible, please think of the effect on this AI gap.

 

[Slvynn]

You need to realize that people disagreeing with you is not a personal attack or insult. Its just disagreement.

Good design comes from critically evaluating ideas, not from adopting changes uncritically out of "respect".

I appreciate that you are not a native English speaker, and that your English skills are far better than mine are in your language (Russian?) or anything other than English. However, your English is often very difficult to understand.

again, man, lets make peace, sorry if i being harsh at times.
And i know i am hard to understand.
In my language i explain myself in riddles, quite often. Like Yoda. In for which is not plain at all.
simply i make observations and being tired at evening, knowing my effort i put not things, and alot of denial of my statements, which are not just illusion...
Yes my motherlanguage is Russian, but i know more 2 languages at levels bit lower than mother language but higher than english, because i live in not russian-speaking country .

Ah, and sorry for offtopic post. If it to be removed - please remove it