The Sword of Islam: RFC Medieval Middle East

[Jusos2108]

I would personally prefer Byzantine over any other option. Eastern Roman sounds weird, no matter how historical it may be.

 

[AOS9001]

It's just that I read up on the Eastern Roman label, and if it's used at all, it refers to the period up to Heraclius. That and I hoped that you'd just forget about it

Refers, maybe. But they never actually stopped calling themselves that. What if we called the Abbassid Caliphate Mesopotamia? Both Byzantium and Mesopotamia both existed, but their names changed. During this time period, Byzantium turned into Constantinople, capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Mesopotamia was under the the rule of the Abbassid Caliphate, and thus was not Mesopotamia. And I don't see ERE being called Greece, and I don't see the Abbassids being called Iraqi (as Iraq currently occupies most of their land, just as Greece occupies a part of ERE).

Do as you will (It's your mod, as we all know), but I'm going to keep pressing this point. It's what I do. Maybe the Turk will join me, he seems intent on it too.

 

[embryodead]

Refers, maybe. But they never actually stopped calling themselves that. What if we called the Abbassid Caliphate Mesopotamia? Both Byzantium and Mesopotamia both existed, but their names changed. During this time period, Byzantium turned into Constantinople, capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, and Mesopotamia was under the the rule of the Abbassid Caliphate, and thus was not Mesopotamia. And I don't see ERE being called Greece, and I don't see the Abbassids being called Iraqi (as Iraq currently occupies most of their land, just as Greece occupies a part of ERE).

There's no "what if", we just call them what we call them. I don't use Byzantium because of the original latinized name, I use Byzantine Empire because that's the name used in history to refer to the medieval Greek continuation of the Roman Empire. It's just as good and useful as "Middle Ages", even though the people of the Middle Ages would certainly disagree with this designation.

Mesopotamia is a geographical term, it's used in all contexts, though Arabs under Abbasids actually called it Iraq (the main part of it).

 

[2phunkey4u]

For those civs that need to control an enormous amount of territory by a certain date (Seljuks and Timurids), I suggest changing the objective from "control" to "dominate", making their vassals' territories count for them. Or reduce their expansion stability penalty.

My experience from my previous game with the Seljuks makes me think so. By 1150 I had about 7.5% of territory conquered (truly not too difficult with HAs, still I lost a lot of them), and about 4 % came from vassals (Armenia, Georgia, Byzantinum, Khwarezm). Even during a golden age my stability never exceeded -20 (mostly due to the expansion), there were seccessions every three turns and I collapsed shortly after. My economy was also extremely weak due to the high military upkeep.

Making the vassals' territories count isn't that off historically, either, is it?

 

[embryodead]

For those civs that need to control an enormous amount of territory by a certain date (Seljuks and Timurids), I suggest changing the objective from "control" to "dominate", making their vassals' territories count for them. Or reduce their expansion stability penalty.

My experience from my previous game with the Seljuks makes me think so. By 1150 I had about 7.5% of territory conquered (truly not too difficult with HAs, still I lost a lot of them), and about 4 % came from vassals (Armenia, Georgia, Byzantinum, Khwarezm). Even during a golden age my stability never exceeded -20 (mostly due to the expansion), there were seccessions every three turns and I collapsed shortly after. My economy was also extremely weak due to the high military upkeep.

Making the vassals' territories count isn't that off historically, too, is it?

Makes sense for Seljuks, I'll change that. For Timurids, I'm not sure, and I completed that UHV before, so it's doable.

 

[Jusos2108]

Makes sense for Seljuks, I'll change that. For Timurids, I'm not sure, and I completed that UHV before, so it's doable.

Please consider this first before doing it, or then increase the needed percentage, otherwise it will be too easy.

@2phunkey4u: Claiming the title Shanshahshah (whatever) gives you +10 stability also expanding your cities borders via culture is a much easier and stability frendlier way to get the 12%.

 

[embryodead]

Rawr. They're static though, like I said I can't make animated ones unless I get some Blender help, but I guess that frozen leopards are better than live beavers.

 

[The Turk]

@Embryodead
YES YES YES!! YOU CAN"T IMAGINE HOW HAPPY I AM! You are by FARR one of my favorite modders! And yes static snow leopards for the moment, would be MUCH better than beavers!

But can make them move later on though?

@Byzantium
I would still strongly encourage you to change their name to the Eastern Roman Empire, as this is what they called themselves from the beginning until 1453 (and even then, some Greeks still considered themselves Roman). I would suggest your listen to the podcast, "12 Byzantine Rulers" by Lars Brownworth, who explains that it was the Germans who gave them the name 'the Byzantines", because they wanted to make the point that THEY (the Germans), were the true Holy Roman Empire, and as an insult changed their name to the "Byzantines". But since the Germans are not in this game anyways, I would strongly suggest that you call them the Eastern Roman Empire. Because as Lars Brownworth says (he is quite a famous Roman historian), the Roman Empire did not end with the reign of Romulus Augustus in 476 AD, but it ended in 1453 with the reign of Constantine XI, in Constantinople. To further add to my case, of called the "Byzantines" the Eastern Roman Empire, is that when Mehmed II conquered Constantinople, he took the title of "Roman Emperor", something which all "Byzantine" rulers called themselves.

@4th Crusade
All this talk about the Eastern Roman Empire, made me remember that your mod, is missing one HUGE element, the infamous "4th Crusade", sent off from Venice, with the backing of the blind Doge Enrico Dandalo (who had bankrupted them, and forced them to take Constantinople as service to him). In the game, a fairly large army should spawn near Adrainopolis in 1204AD, and it should be led by crusaders, their mission to be to conquer Constantinople, and they could (SHOULD) be a non-playable civ, like the Zengids, but they should be weaker (stability wise), and should have their fall period in 1261 AD. If they manage to capture Constantinople, then the Byzantines should collapse, and JUST a few turns later, should respawn at Nicea (as the Empire of Nicaea, as they were called), with a bit more vigor, and the willingness to recapture the city. This would also help keep the Byzantine Empire alive until 1453, since they would have almost a fresh start, with fresh troops, but eventually would have to fall to the Ottomans (PS. They should have their capital INSTANTLY moved back to Constantinople for them). For anymore details which you would like me to provide, believe me I CAN provide! As I feel this is a big part of history missing, and it would also help keep the Byzantines alive a bit longer.

PS. Notice the flag change, between pre-4th Crusade, and post recapture of Constantinople from the Latin Empire, the flag changed, and that should be noted somewhere for future use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Empire

PPS. The Ottomans should spawn with Adrianople, like in RFC Europe, but also for other reasons, which I can explain to you in better detail (basically they were "invited" to invade Europe BY the Byzantines)

 

[Jusos2108]

@4th Crusade
All this talk about the Eastern Roman Empire, made me remember that your mod, is missing one HUGE element, the infamous "4th Crusade", sent off from Venice, with the backing of the blind Doge Enrico Dandalo (who had bankrupted them, and forced them to take Constantinople as service to him). In the game, a fairly large army should spawn near Adrainopolis in 1204AD, and it should be led by crusaders, their mission to be to conquer Constantinople, and they could (SHOULD) be a non-playable civ, like the Zengids, but they should be weaker (stability wise), and should have their fall period in 1261 AD. If they manage to capture Constantinople, then the Byzantines should collapse, and JUST a few turns later, should respawn at Nicea (as the Empire of Nicaea, as they were called), with a bit more vigor, and the willingness to recapture the city. This would also help keep the Byzantine Empire alive until 1453, since they would have almost a fresh start, with fresh troops, but eventually would have to fall to the Ottomans (PS. They should have their capital INSTANTLY moved back to Constantinople for them). For anymore details which you would like me to provide, believe me I CAN provide! As I feel this is a big part of history missing, and it would also help keep the Byzantines alive a bit longer.

PPS. The Ottomans should spawn with Adrianople, like in RFC Europe, but also for other reasons, which I can explain to you in better detail (basically they were "invited" to invade Europe BY the Byzantines)

Can you tell me what an AI versus AI battle would add to the gameplay? Or in case the human is Byzantine, I would only add another meaningless massacre. And the respawn as Nicean Empire, which lasted about 30 turns, seriously? Currently the Byzantine Empire is quite well balanced (except it usually goes down a bit too early), that would only mean serious rebalancing.

PPS. Constantinople and Hadrianopolis are in the same province, so it wouldn't work, also see the upper comment about Byzantine going down too early.

 

[2phunkey4u]

Claiming the title Shanshahshah (whatever) gives you +10 stability also expanding your cities borders via culture is a much easier and stability frendlier way to get the 12%.

I also claimed that title in my game. Didn't really help. But the point you're making about the cultural borders is good.

Again about titles: I think I could have been saved also by keeping Konstantiniyye (gave it back after vassalizing the Bzyantines). But then again, isn't vassalizing the holder of a title also supposed to transfer the title to you (or have you share them)?

 

[MessageMan]

I also claimed that title in my game. Didn't really help. But the point you're making about the cultural borders is good.

Again about titles: I think I could have been saved also by keeping Konstantiniyye (gave it back after vassalizing the Bzyantines). But then again, isn't vassalizing the holder of a title also supposed to transfer the title tot you (or have you share them)?

Why were you all the way over in Western Anatolia if you were the Seljuks?

If you lose a whole bunch of Horse Archers it permanently affects your stability. Unless you killed two units for every one you lost, you receive a penalty.

 

[MessageMan]

There's a bug in Siltation event. The description is fine "The waterways near ....." but the button to keep playing the game comes up as TXT_KEY_EVENT_SILTATION_1.

Maybe it's just the way I play the game, but I find that technology progresses very slowly, and a lot of the time I don't get to use the unique units until the game is pretty much won.

Unless your empire lasts for a very long time, I don't think I will bother with libraries anymore, which was one of the first things I built in normal RFC. Now I think I will build granary then blacksmith then military buildings/units.

Did you purposefully remove the 20 gold cap for the shrines? Right now I'm at +22 for Kaaba.

Will you be giving a defensive unit to Antioch and an offensive unit to KoJ next patch or have you decided to scrap the idea?

 

[Barak]

Playing my first game in 2.4.1 as Sultanate of Rum and I am reminded that new civs often starve themselves out of population the first few turns. Any way to stop this?

 

[The Turk]

Can you tell me what an AI versus AI battle would add to the gameplay? Or in case the human is Byzantine, I would only add another meaningless massacre.

I'm sorry, but did you REALLY say, that the 4th Crusade should not be mentioned in a game, which follows the history of the Middle East? I mean, hello!? Embryodead has said that this is a "historical mod", and if he included the Kharijite rebellion, the Iconclastic movement, Greek Fire, and DID NOT include the 4th Crusade, it would be like not including the Mongol Invasion in a mod about China. The 4th Crusade was CRUCIAL, to weakening the ERE, and it also formed the Empire of Nicae, which would later, recapture Constantinople, and install a new driving force behind the ERE, that it was even strong enough to reassert a lot of its lost influence in Anatolia, and managed to vassalize a lot of the Seljuk Beys in the area. So yes, the Empire of Nicaea, is VERY important. And perhaps you don't like how complicated, I have made it sound, the truth is that, that was just the way I saw it, we can have them represented in ANY way. In fact, you can just have a dynamic civ respawn, as the ERE, but its dynamic civ name would be "The Empire of Nicaea" and when it captured Constatniople, it would go back to being called the "Byzantine Empire/ Eastern Roman Empire" (actually I like that better).


PS. We can just split up the two provinces between Adrianopolis and Constantinople again!

 

[MrBanana]

Did you purposefully remove the 20 gold cap for the shrines? Right now I'm at +22 for Kaaba.

It counts as a state religion building, so if you have the Spiral Minaret it increases the Kaaba's gold by +2.

 

[Jusos2108]

@The Turk: Where does it say in my post that it shouldn't be included at all? Also you failed to comment the balance issues and the even earlier collapse of the Byzantine Empire. I doubt the AI would ever be able to recapture Constantinople, and giving it stack right next to it is perhaps too promt.

I would consider presenting the 4th crusade as an event, which might occur if either one of the PoA or KoJ is at war against Byzantines. The event could be that by paying some cash, either one them would receive a some troops next to Constantinople. Your way is just too complicated and this way it wouldn't be a meaningless battle as KoJ or PoA would actually gain control of the city and probably lose it soon enough to either Byzantine or to Turks.

 

[The Turk]

But the 4th Crusade was a Venetian led one by Enrico Dandalo, it had nothing to do with PoA OR KoJ, they had absolutely, no relation to that Crusade. In fact the Pope even excommunicated ANYBODY who took part of that crusade, as they sacked Zara (for the Venetians; not to mention Zara was Catholic and under protection of the Pope), and killed many Orthodox Christians along the way to Constantinople, against the wishes of the Pope, so if anything the PoA AND KoJ, would have been sickened by the sight of this so called "crusade". Later on Venice was excommunicated by the Pope.
First off I think we should wait until Embryodead arrives on the scene, and figures out what is impossible and what is "doable", because all of us now, that the 4th Crusade needs to be represented some how, and I think having "the Latin Empire" be present as a non-playable faction would be a good idea.

 

[Jusos2108]

Yes I know that it had nothing to do with them, however, IMO that's the best way to implement it into this mod.

 

[AOS9001]

@Turk: I agree on pretty much all points.

The 4th Crusade can be pulled off relatively easily. The Human player knows it's coming, so they'll be prepared, thus making it another slaughter (if a very important historical one), but the AI wouldn't. Since Constantinople is pretty far back from the action, they wouldn't have a lot of troops there, just like in real history. A stack of so-called Crusaders could just spawn there, and boom, Latin Empire for about 30 turns. I've seen the Zengids last about that long (though often longer, and the Latins could last longer too). If their stability goes down too much, or after a certain turn, the ERE can spawn back and kick the Latins out.

Of course, I just think it's easy because I have no programming experience. I'm sure it's more complicated than it sounds.

 

[Jusos2108]

I think I found a bug, or can somebody tell me which building gives me the extra +10% culture??

Spoiler :