The thread for space cadets!

Well they have. 1800$ is not a problem. Also it is difficult to launch a rocket in China without parts falling near some populated place, since most people live in the eastern half of the country. (for the total profanes in spacial things it is much better to launch things eastward to take advantage of Earth rotation speed) OTOH placing the launching site in the eastern coast would considerably upset the Japanese i suppose.
 
Well they have. 1800$ is not a problem. Also it is difficult to launch a rocket in China without parts falling near some populated place, since most people live in the eastern half of the country. (for the total profanes in spacial things it is much better to launch things eastward to take advantage of Earth rotation speed) OTOH placing the launching site in the eastern coast would considerably upset the Japanese i suppose.

Yes, I realize all of this. I still think that they would have cleared the drop zones of villages by now - it's not beyond their capability either, just look at what they did to make the 3 Gorges Dam. It just seems odd to me that they either haven't figured out where their boosters will drop with some certainty or haven't evicted people in the path by now given their past history of completely obliterating villages with wayward rockets. Then again, as you suggest, maybe payoffs of $1800 for the occasional accident are the cheaper route for them. It's just unimaginable from a Western perspective.

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Moon Express unveils its commercial lunar lander design

A commercial space company has revealed the design of the lunar lander that it aims to send to the moon in 2015.

California-based Moon Express unveiled the blueprint and first images of its MX-1 lunar lander on Thursday in Las Vegas, during the last day of the Autodesk University computer-aided design conference. In addition to delivering payloads to the lunar surface, the coffee-table-sized MX-1 could also help service satellites, deploy tiny "cubesats" in Earth orbit and clean up space junk, company officials say.

"We really have tried to create a multifaceted, flexible and scalable spacecraft that can be utilized by other people for a number of different business applications," Moon Express co-founder and CEO Bob Richards told Space.com. [Countdown: Wildest Private Deep-Space Mission Ideas]

Moon Express designed the MX-1 from the ground up, Richards said. When fully fueled and ready for launch, it will weigh just 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms), with rocket fuel constituting more than 75 percent of the mass.

Legless landing
To make the lander so light, engineers employed composite materials and did away with the typical "bus," or structure that supports most spacecraft. Instead, the MX-1's fuel tanks serve as the structure, Richards said.


"With that, we got rid of a huge amount of mass," he said.

The MX-1's main rocket engine will burn hydrogen peroxide, though it also relies on kerosene as an afterburner to accelerate out of Earth orbit and head toward the moon.

The lander will be capable of delivering 132 pounds (60 kilograms) of payload to the lunar surface. Unlike the landers that NASA developed during the Apollo program, the craft has no legs; instead, it will land slowly and softly on one of its empty fuel tanks, whose collapsibility will cushion the blow.

Targeting 2015
The MX-1's maiden moon flight is slated to occur in late 2015 as part of the $40 million Google Lunar X Prize, an international challenge to land a robot on the lunar surface, have it travel at least 1,650 feet (500 meters) and send data and images back to Earth.

The first privately funded team to do all of this by the end of 2015 will receive the $20 million grand prize. An additional $20 million is set aside for second place and various special accomplishments and milestones, bringing the prize's total purse to $40 million.

Moon Express — one of 22 teams still in the running — wants to win the grand prize, but its ambitions don't stop there. The company aims to make money flying commercial and government payloads to the moon, and it eventually wants to extract water and other resources from Earth's nearest neighbor, both to benefit humanity on its home planet and to help our species extend its footprint out into the solar system.

Moon Express has already started building the MX-1, Richards said, and aims to have an engineering prototype ready for a test flight on Earth by May or June of next year.
This is a cool effort - I will have to send them my resume later today.

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I've been reading some Zubrin lately. Oh. My. God. He can be really grating and misleading as s%$*. What an obnoxious turd!

Winner, I have no idea how you manage to get through his books, he says some borderline offensive things about Europeans and is chock full of pseudo-history garbage. The book I'm also reading wasn't just about Mars, or so I thought. Then half way through it became 'The Case for Mars II' and it's freaking annoying.

Also, now that I understand the technical aspects better than I did when I last read his stuff a few years ago, I have to say the guy is one misleading mofo. Some of his stuff is borderline lies to tell you the truth. Yuck. What an asshat.
 
I've been reading some Zubrin lately. Oh. My. God. He can be really grating and misleading as s%$*. What an obnoxious turd!

Winner, I have no idea how you manage to get through his books, he says some borderline offensive things about Europeans and is chock full of pseudo-history garbage. The book I'm also reading wasn't just about Mars, or so I thought. Then half way through it became 'The Case for Mars II' and it's freaking annoying.

Also, now that I understand the technical aspects better than I did when I last read his stuff a few years ago, I have to say the guy is one misleading mofo. Some of his stuff is borderline lies to tell you the truth. Yuck. What an asshat.

Well, being a non-American exposed to the cultures of English speaking countries (i.e., mostly American with some seasoning of British) all the time by virtue of working/studying in the field I've chosen, you grow somewhat thicker skin against this sort of "American/British exceptionalism" nonsense. You just shrug it off, same as you ignore annoying folk traditions in other parts of the world ;)

What are you reading?

I haven't read everything he wrote. I just rolled my eyes at his "Energy Victory", because (as it often - not always - happens when people write about things outside their field of expertise) the very thesis has been debunked by... well, physics, many times before. Hint: if somebody proposes a win-win, super-simple solution to a very serious, complex problem, he's likely wrong and what he proposes is nonsense.

IMO, he's good when he throws around ideas. That's where he's at his best - ideas, concepts, things to consider. He gets progressively more wrong when he starts ironing out details. Lately he stopped worrying about annoying details completely and just ignores them.

Note to the Mars Society - shuffle him to some harmless position (honourable chairman?) and elect somebody less divisive and more capable of producing good-looking PowerPoint presentations.
 
I'm about half way through Entering Space: Creating a Spacefaring Civilization.

The first half was decent though it was chock-full of mischaracterizations and irrational exuberance. For example, at one point he talked about how a Mars Direct-style colonization effort could be undertaken with the launch of a couple of Saturn V equivalent rockets per year. He assumes that the development of such rockets could be had for chump change and in the space of a couple of years and then goes on to say that the launch of a couple of Saturn V equivalent rockets per year represents only 12% of the US's heavy-lift capability (at the time). What preposterous bunk! For one, you can't just develop a Saturn V class rocket cheaply and quickly. For another, you can go and say, 'oh a couple of these launches are only equal to 12% of the US's heavy lift capability' because those kinds of rockets (Saturn V class) don't exist. I mean, if you can't fit the hardware onto smaller rockets than a Saturn V, then you can't do any missions. As an anology, he's trying to say that if you have a fleet of compact cars with the carrying capacity of a couple of semis but you don't actually have any semis, you could still transport a piano with your fleet. You can't cut up a piano just like you can't (easily) divide up some of the hardware he needs for Mars Direct.

You could divide up some of it, for sure. Maybe you could even divide up all of it (though he never mentions this) to fit on smaller rockets. But then your costs sky-rocket (no pun intended) for a whole host of reasons. But he never even mentions is because we have the 'equivalent' of multiple Saturn V launches at our disposal. It's just nonsense, though I'm not sure I'm writing clearly enough to get the gist of the problem across. Apologies if I'm unclear.


And there's a bunch of other really technically, fiscally or politically unsound things he mentions in the book but that one just jumped off the page at me. You're absolutely correct though, he's an idea man more than he is an actual execution-man. As an aside I recently found out that his reputation amongst most engineers/professors in the Aero field is pretty much toilet water. I was told he tries to pass off other people's ideas as his own, mischaracterizes his credentials and is so abrasive that no one wants to work with him but fanbois.

I won't touch of any of his non-space work such Energy Victory. Kudos for you though!
 
Well, being a non-American exposed to the cultures of English speaking countries (i.e., mostly American with some seasoning of British) all the time by virtue of working/studying in the field I've chosen, you grow somewhat thicker skin against this sort of "American/British exceptionalism" nonsense. You just shrug it off, same as you ignore annoying folk traditions in other parts of the world ;)
Do you have sort of "Those Anglos!" post quota or something you strive to meet?

For one, you can't just develop a Saturn V class rocket cheaply and quickly.
Considering the Saturn V already exists, most of the technological challenge is done, because you have a proven design with proven components. So the R&D cost is significantly lowered. This is evident by the fact that say, NASA is bringing back the F1 engine. Or see here.

For another, you can go and say, 'oh a couple of these launches are only equal to 12% of the US's heavy lift capability' because those kinds of rockets (Saturn V class) don't exist.
Considering he's talking about total tonnage put in space per year, yes, he can. It's not a sophisticated concept.

I mean, if you can't fit the hardware onto smaller rockets than a Saturn V, then you can't do any missions. As an anology, he's trying to say that if you have a fleet of compact cars with the carrying capacity of a couple of semis but you don't actually have any semis, you could still transport a piano with your fleet. You can't cut up a piano just like you can't (easily) divide up some of the hardware he needs for Mars Direct.
You can if it's a modular piano. Considering there's a very long history of large objects requiring assembly in orbit, like ISS or Mir, why would a Mars mission necessarily be a single-lift operation?

You could divide up some of it, for sure. Maybe you could even divide up all of it (though he never mentions this) to fit on smaller rockets. But then your costs sky-rocket (no pun intended) for a whole host of reasons. But he never even mentions is because we have the 'equivalent' of multiple Saturn V launches at our disposal. It's just nonsense, though I'm not sure I'm writing clearly enough to get the gist of the problem across. Apologies if I'm unclear.
No, you're just wrong, given that things like Falcon 9 come in a fraction of the cost of traditional United Launch Alliance vehicles and traditional NASA staples.

And there's a bunch of other really technically, fiscally or politically unsound things he mentions in the book but that one just jumped off the page at me.
Given the above, it seems more likely you just don't know what you're talking about.
 
Well, being a non-American exposed to the cultures of English speaking countries (i.e., mostly American with some seasoning of British) all the time by virtue of working/studying in the field I've chosen, you grow somewhat thicker skin against this sort of "American/British exceptionalism" nonsense. You just shrug it off, same as you ignore annoying folk traditions in other parts of the world ;)

Is the global irrelevance, unintelligible bureaucratic kludge, and general economic malaise of the European Union one of those "annoying folk traditions?"

If so I'd rather be exceptional. Such as having a working space program! Call me when the ESA does...anything of note. Which will be never.
 
Yes, I realize all of this. I still think that they would have cleared the drop zones of villages by now

They're quite busy clearing the drop zone, every launch they remove another village.
 
Well, except for the fact that he's sorta... well, you know, an actual rocket scientist.
They'll let in anybody these days, I guess.
 
If so I'd rather be exceptional. Such as having a working space program! Call me when the ESA does...anything of note. Which will be never.

You're right, Europe is not one of the two countries that have a working human spaceflight program right now.
 
Considering the Saturn V already exists, most of the technological challenge is done, because you have a proven design with proven components. So the R&D cost is significantly lowered. This is evident by the fact that say, NASA is bringing back the F1 engine. Or see here.
The tooling no longer exists for the Saturn V and it's not as simple as just dusting off the plans and building more. See decade-long history (and billions of dollars spent) of the Aries/SLS program to see how it's not so simple building a new heavy-lift rocket. Now, redesigning/rebuilding the Saturn V would have been a quicker, simpler and cheaper route to take, I grant you that, but even that isn't as simple as you seem to think.


Considering he's talking about total tonnage put in space per year, yes, he can. It's not a sophisticated concept.
You're missing the point. You can't always divide everything in to smaller chunks. As I said before, Zubrin's plan calls on Saturn V class rockets to lift the components. He didn't mention dividing them up into smaller chunks over multiple launches as he specifically mentioned Saturn V class rockets that don't exist, then claims the lifting potential of those launches represent a 12% of the total lifting capacity. That's mixing apples and oranges.


You can if it's a modular piano. Considering there's a very long history of large objects requiring assembly in orbit, like ISS or Mir, why would a Mars mission necessarily be a single-lift operation?
That would fall under the 'host of other problems' that I mentioned. For one, the plan is already modular, requiring at least 2 launches a year of super-heavy rockets that don't exist. Breaking it up into components means adding propulsion/service stages for each component, docking nodes, structural and plumbing additions, etc. It adds drastically to the complexity, mass and cost of the overall system --> which defeats the entire purpose of Mars Direct as envisioned by Zubrin. That's not mentioning of course the expense of the extra launch vehicles (which, depending on how much the mythical Saturn V class rockets cost, could actually save money), the complexity of docking them and assembling them plus costs associated with keeping the components on orbit for however much longer it takes to assembly them all.

And again, he specifically talked about launching things in single-lift operations on Saturn V class rockets. Not sure if you missed that point or somehow interpreted that I assumed that. I didn't, his plan expressly calls for it.

No, you're just wrong, given that things like Falcon 9 come in a fraction of the cost of traditional United Launch Alliance vehicles and traditional NASA staples.
'Things' like Falcon 9. You mean, Falcon 9. There are no 'things' like it and it's going to be a while before that system is fully proven, particularly in the heavy-lift role. Even then, it falls well short of the Saturn V type of rocket Zubrin expressly calls for.

In any case, the launch vehicle is actually typically one of the smallest costs associated with large space systems. It's usually the cost of the payload itself and the R&D associated with it that has the biggest part of the cost. Breaking up the launch (which, for the tenth time, is not what Zubrin called for) is actually going to drive up your overall costs considerably.


Given the above, it seems more likely you just don't know what you're talking about.
:huh:

:lol: Ok dude.
Is the global irrelevance, unintelligible bureaucratic kludge, and general economic malaise of the European Union one of those "annoying folk traditions?"

If so I'd rather be exceptional. Such as having a working space program! Call me when the ESA does...anything. Which will be never.
Um....the ESA is awesome. Do you not know about their planetary science accomplishments, their suite of interplanetary probes, their contributions to the ISS or the Ariane series of rockets?
 
They'll let in anybody these days, I guess.

They let me in. That's why I don't post in this thread anymore. I realized pursuing an undergraduate degree doesn't mean you actually know anything.
 
I just build satellites and new cold-gas propulsions systems in my spare time. The hell would I know?
 
Is that true?
 
Well, he said "spare time," which tells me he's either Tony Stark, or playing Kerbal Space Program.
 
The tooling no longer exists for the Saturn V and it's not as simple as just dusting off the plans and building more. See decade-long history (and billions of dollars spent) of the Aries/SLS program to see how it's not so simple building a new heavy-lift rocket. Now, redesigning/rebuilding the Saturn V would have been a quicker, simpler and cheaper route to take, I grant you that, but even that isn't as simple as you seem to think.
Political and economic consideration, not an engineering challenge. The original Saturn V was thrown together in approximately a decade for roughly $46 billion, ignoring precursor work. The Soviet N1 had roughly similar capabilities and was put together in an equivalent amount of time. So was the Soviet Energia for Buran, which was only just shy of the Saturn V in LEO capabilities. It's not nearly as challenging as you think, it's a question of its priority for the people signing the checks. Given NASA's annual budget lately, and those of other space agencies, one can infer how high that priority is. (Hint: it isn't.)

In any case, the launch vehicle is actually typically one of the smallest costs associated with large space systems. It's usually the cost of the payload itself and the R&D associated with it that has the biggest part of the cost. Breaking up the launch (which, for the tenth time, is not what Zubrin called for) is actually going to drive up your overall costs considerably.
If you're only making a few shots, sure. For anything with a long enough operational record, unit flights will dominate the total cost of the endeavor. Interestingly, there is also a sweet-spot to be hand in total number of units assembled versus individual cost, due to economies of scale. Even if a larger vehicle is more efficient per flight, several smaller vehicles may wind up being cheaper overall. That's just in theory though.

In any case, the launch vehicle is actually typically one of the smallest costs associated with large space systems. It's usually the cost of the payload itself and the R&D associated with it that has the biggest part of the cost. Breaking up the launch (which, for the tenth time, is not what Zubrin called for) is actually going to drive up your overall costs considerably.
In actual practice, you're still wrong. Doing some rough math:

Falcon 9 Heavy cost: ~$100 million per launch
LEO payload: 53,000kg
Unit rate: $1886/kg

Delta IV Heavy cost: ~$435 million per launch
LEO payload: 27,569kg
Unit rate: $15778/kg

Space Shuttle cost: ~$762 million per launch
LEO payload: 24,400kg
Unit rate: $31229/kg

Saturn V cost: ~$1.28 billion per launch
LEO payload: 120,000kg
Unit rate: $10666/kg

It's cheaper to break it up into smaller, more economical launch vehicles, and Falcon 9 outperforms Saturn V by over a factor of 5 on launch economy. Your argument only holds if there is a particular item that requires well more than the 53,000kg launch limit, of which just about the only thing that would qualify is a fission reactor for an electric power source. Given Zubrin's intense distaste for VASIMR, I doubt there's anything in his proposal that does in fact require full launch weight per throw. If there was, as the first point demonstrates, putting together a new launch vehicle would not be that hard—if the financial backing and political will existed in the first place, which it would have to for this to even be an issue.

That would fall under the 'host of other problems' that I mentioned. For one, the plan is already modular, requiring at least 2 launches a year of super-heavy rockets that don't exist. Breaking it up into components means adding propulsion/service stages for each component, docking nodes, structural and plumbing additions, etc. It adds drastically to the complexity, mass and cost of the overall system.
This is more valid, but it's not like you're just going to seal some docking clamps on some modules and flit off to Mars. The behavior of a ship under thrust (admittedly depending upon the scale of thrust) is going to necessitate more rigorous construction than that. These issues have already been well studied in modular assembly of modern ships and other large vehicles. That's not to say those techniques will translate 1:1 to orbit, but more or less everyone is familiar with the need for some orbital assembly being required.

In Zubrin's case, Mars Direct can avoid this by being broken down into smaller, more mission-specific modules which can still fulfill the majority of their time-critical functions (e.g., fuel production) while having more esoteric functions enabled by on-site construction by the astronauts. The specifics of how to do that are beyond this conversation, but it's not hard to see how it could be done.

And again, he specifically talked about launching things in single-lift operations on Saturn V class rockets. Not sure if you missed that point or somehow interpreted that I assumed that. I didn't, his plan expressly calls for it.
Plans can be modified and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how. Zubrin was writing what was basically a best-case playbook, not an infinitely flexible field manual. A little imagination goes a pretty long way in adapting it.

I just build satellites and new cold-gas propulsions systems in my spare time. The hell would I know?
And someone who builds racing boats is an expert on nuclear subs, eh?
 
Do you have sort of "Those Anglos!" post quota or something you strive to meet?

No. Perhaps if you had read what I was responding to, you'd have realized I was sort of replying to Hobbs' question "how do I cope with the Europe/rest of the world-bashing, America-glorifying stuff Zubrin writes in his books".

Is the global irrelevance, unintelligible bureaucratic kludge, and general economic malaise of the European Union one of those "annoying folk traditions?"

If so I'd rather be exceptional. Such as having a working space program! Call me when the ESA does...anything of note. Which will be never.

Keep posting things like this, it will make the irony so much juicier. Is this "of note"?

Gaia is an ambitious mission to chart a three-dimensional map of our Galaxy, the Milky Way, in the process revealing the composition, formation and evolution of the Galaxy. Gaia will provide unprecedented positional and radial velocity measurements with the accuracies needed to produce a stereoscopic and kinematic census of about one billion stars in our Galaxy and throughout the Local Group. This amounts to about 1 per cent of the Galactic stellar population.
 
No. Perhaps if you had read what I was responding to, you'd have realized I was sort of replying to Hobbs' question "how do I cope with the Europe/rest of the world-bashing, America-glorifying stuff Zubrin writes in his books".
It just seems to come up with you a lot, that's all.
 
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