The thread for space cadets!

[hobbsyoyo]

I'd no idea Venus had been visited so much!

I wonder if they count all of the failures on that graph.

 

[Michkov]

Is it ever going to be an evening-sky comet? Or is it exclusively morning-sky?

After periapsis it will rise earlier everyday. If it survives that is

 

[peter grimes]

When you say 'rises earlier every day', that means it rises in the east earlier than it did the day before? So after, a bit of time (weeks, a couple months), it's possible that it may rise near midnight or even 10pm?

I'm going to check some sites for videos that show the orbit - that should make it clear....

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

Sigh. I despise morning-only comets.

<--- Not a morning person, obv.

 

[peter grimes]

Yes, it should become an evening / night viewing comet in December / january:


Link to video.

specifically, pay attention from 0:50 - just before New Years the comet will be on the other side of our orbit, in other words after that never <180 degrees from the sun.

 

[Winner]

I wonder if they count all of the failures on that graph.

They do.

It makes sense that the three closest planetary bodies (I am counting in the Moon as well, of course) are the most visited. Especially early in the Solar System exploration, they were the best targets to shoot at.

The Russians went for Venus big time, because it is relatively easy to "hit" (deep gravity well, dense atmosphere, close orbit). Eventually they even managed to build something that lasted more than minutes on the surface, which is not a small achievement. I saw a documentary about the Venera probes - the first Russian prototype was tested in a pressure furnace, and when the test ended, they found a little pool of molten metal on the floor A lot of "trial-and-error" testing was involved, but eventually they nailed it.

I really wish we could try to land a rover in that hell. I am sure the geologists would give their left hand for some samples from the surface; since Venus is both so similar and so different from Earth, studying these differences would undoubtedly yield a lot of science.

 

[peter grimes]

How much harder to leave Venus surface, though! Drag would be immense.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The Russians went for Venus big time, because it is relatively easy to "hit" (deep gravity well, dense atmosphere, close orbit). Eventually they even managed to build something that lasted more than minutes on the surface, which is not a small achievement. I saw a documentary about the Venera probes - the first Russian prototype was tested in a pressure furnace, and when the test ended, they found a little pool of molten metal on the floor A lot of "trial-and-error" testing was involved, but eventually they nailed it.

I really wish we could try to land a rover in that hell. I am sure the geologists would give their left hand for some samples from the surface; since Venus is both so similar and so different from Earth, studying these differences would undoubtedly yield a lot of science.

Do you have a link to that documentary (if it's in English or has subtitles)? I'd be interested in seeing it, the Venera missions have always fascinated me. I've looked through image catalogs from the surface and one in particular always gets me thinking: What's beyond those hills?

Spoiler :

I would actually expect Venus to have life on it. Nothing like life on Earth, excepting extremophiles, which of course still require water. But the high-energy, extreme chemistry environment just seems to be the right kind of mix for very different forms of life to emerge from.

I have heard of this little rover, which uses a sterling cooler to keep its electronics a 'cool' 200C. But I haven't heard any concrete plans from any agency to go to Venus or land on it in the near future.

Spoiler :

I don't think it has a lot of scientific instruments but it would be really cool nonetheless. I wish to see more robotic landers on Venus as you do, I feel it's a big neglected spot in the solar system.


Oh and with the Venera missions - I think it's funny that the Russians were able to land a series of probes that could survive the most insane conditions possible for an hour or two yet they can't get a single thing to Mars successfully!

How much harder to leave Venus surface, though! Drag would be immense.

If you want to see just how hard it is, try playing Kerbal Space Program sometime.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

It must be not funny at all to spend a lot of money in placing a complicated rover there to being able to play with it for a couple of hours only before it becomes molten metal and rust.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

That's the price of cutting-edge science. It all has serious payback as well - it was Venus after all that lead in large part to the theory of climate change. But true enough, it's an extremely challenging environment even if there is so much to be learned there.

 

[peter grimes]

If you want to see just how hard it is, try playing Kerbal Space Program sometime.

And it turns out that KSP is 40% off on Steam right now - only $16. But right now I'm forbidden from spending money for a week or two

I was thinking about it - would a super dense atmosphere like Venus' make the idea of a ballon-buoyant launch platform more viable? Float up to a certain altitude, then you won't need as much fuel to punch through the remainder? I suppose it would still require just the right balance of atmospheric density and fuel mass to make it worth it.

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

I wonder if our collective subconscious misogyny plays a role in the lack of Venus landings since Venera...

 

[hobbsyoyo]

And it turns out that KSP is 40% off on Steam right now - only $16. But right now I'm forbidden from spending money for a week or two

I was thinking about it - would a super dense atmosphere like Venus' make the idea of a ballon-buoyant launch platform more viable? Float up to a certain altitude, then you won't need as much fuel to punch through the remainder? I suppose it would still require just the right balance of atmospheric density and fuel mass to make it worth it.

Certainly, if you can cope with the sulfuric acid, 450C heat and crushing pressures.

___________

Cool video from NASA showing what Mars was once like:

Link to video.

 

[uppi]

Anything inflatable is going to be really hard. Not only because you have to find something that is elastic, but is not destroyed by heat and acid. If you had that, then you would have to carry around a huge load of hydrogen or helium to inflate your balloon.

Maye it would be more useful to think of it in terms of a submarine. If you could build a hull strong enough to withstand the pressure, you could build a spaceship (or rather Venus-ship) that would float at a certain altitude in the atmosphere of Venus. Add tanks and pumps and you have somthing that could then descend to the surface and come back up again.

The problem is to find a material that is light, yet strong and is not corroded by the atmosphere on Venus. So I am thinking of diamond: Almost as light as Aluminum, but much better temperature and acid resistance. Because diamond is a semiconductor with extremely large bandgap, it should even be possible to make electronics with it that can operate at high temperatures. And you would have an extremely shiny ship!

Sadly, we are not able to make such large diamond structures yet. But with our diamond manufacturing capabilities improving we might get there some day.

 

[Wondering Kid]

Hey guys, I've found this vid on YT. Serves as a reminder that the space is still the last frontier, and that screw-ups are expected to happen. But that they should not deter our resolute to explore. (Also, that explosions are fun; and that we need more Engineers and funding for space agencies.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNsJUmFrUCA

 

[Glassfan]

Video: Rocket Launch Sets Record

 

[peter grimes]

I was already to head up to the roof or somewhere else suitable to try and image ISON this morning, but the clouds near the horizon weren't cooperative. I hope this thing doesn't disintegrate and flame out in the next couple of weeks!

 

[Winner]

So this is how Inspiration Mars should look like according to Space.com. I haven't read the full article:

They want an SLS, the heavy variant even? Well, good luck - I hope you're read to wait for a long time and pay a looooot of money for it.

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

I was already to head up to the roof or somewhere else suitable to try and image ISON this morning, but the clouds near the horizon weren't cooperative. I hope this thing doesn't disintegrate and flame out in the next couple of weeks!

It was mentioned yesterday or the day before that two fragments already broke off.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

So this is how Inspiration Mars should look like according to Space.com. I haven't read the full article:

They want an SLS, the heavy variant even? Well, good luck - I hope you're read to wait for a long time and pay a looooot of money for it.

That's insanely ********, I have to say.

A Cygnus hab module? The Cygnus is strictly a robotic resupply module, and not a very big one at that. So they are going to retrofit a Cygnus (which would be a terrible place to start from) to serve as a hab module? Why not go with one of Bigelow's tested inflatable hab modules to start with?

Then they are counting on a heavy-lift SLS? That won't be ready for another decade or so at the very least - and they aren't for sale by NASA. And even if they were for sale, they couldn't afford one!

So they are going to retrofit a Cygnus and buy an SLS and an Orion capsule (which also doesn't exist yet) and have all that ready to go in a couple of years?


That's absolutely astoundingly ********.

Okay, so this is Space.com's mission plan, not necessarily Inspiration Mars'. But it's so stupid why would Space.com even come up with it? Did they say that it couldn't happen for at least a decade? Because then it might make a bit more sense.

All in all though, I don't think Inspiration Mars has any more viable options at the moment - and certainly not with the launch date they have proposed.