The thread for space cadets!

[Crezth]

(The sad truth is that even the Commies had spent more of the country's GDP on R&D, including space, than the post-1989 governments. I am not sure private investment balances the gap.)

This is true, but the Brezhnev regime was nevertheless only peripherally interested in science and technology, and the Commie nations saw their economies tank drastically after the '60s disasters. Spending money on space is nice, but spending it on food is... nicer.

Anyway, how are governments "too inefficient" to go to the moon? Didn't they go to the moon in the, you know, first place?

 

[Winner]

I think he's coming at it from the angle that the political process in the US (and much of the West, for that matter) is really hard on long-term space projects, while the Chinese process is much friendly to them. I'm sure he's bitter from having lived through all the budget cuts, changed priorities forced by politicians and missed opportunity NASA has endured over the years.

I mean the helium-3 part. I'd expect such beliefs from uneducated journalists, not from someone who knows stuff. Unless he is of course pulling their legs to further his agenda, in which case it makes sense.

These guys think they can fund a private moon mission.
I'd like to believe them, but it definately reads like a pie in the sky plan. They don't even go into depth (at least not in the article) about how they are going to raise the capital they need other than vague references to 'media ventures' and making enough advance sales to attact financing. Good luck with that.

Yeah. Whenever you read about something that doesn't have a funding plan worked out, you know it's not going to happen.

"Look look, we have a good idea! Just let's get a lot of money somewhere and we will do this!"

____________________

I really hope they do this, it's a lot easier than drilling down through the ice-crust of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn (I hope they do those too eventually). The article says this is 'low hanging fruit' because it doesn't require a lander and much of the technology needed was demonstrated by the Stardust probe.

I'd be very surprised if there actually *was* life. And a bit scared. I kind of hope that such missions will show that life isn't *that* easy to evolve.

 

[Winner]

This is true, but the Brezhnev regime was nevertheless only peripherally interested in science and technology, and the Commie nations saw their economies tank drastically after the '60s disasters. Spending money on space is nice, but spending it on food is... nicer.

Not every Communist regime was as poverty-stricken as the USSR; we had plenty of food here From what I know, science in Czechoslovakia was hampered more by the closed borders and the lack of free exchange of ideas than the lack of funds. The fact that many of these old guys who were doing science back then managed to make money post-1989 patenting stuff proves the human resources were well developed.

Today we're trying to *re-adopt* certain strategies the Commies used to use to make people interested in sciences. Somebody should be asking why we let our education system deteriorate so much in this respect.

Anyway, how are governments "too inefficient" to go to the moon? Didn't they go to the moon in the, you know, first place?

I am sure they mean "to do it again". The US went to the Moon to beat the Soviets in something to cement its leadership position in the world. It was a prestige project first, everything else (like, learning something about the Moon) was secondary.

Now we're out of the "cold war mindset", so government focus on other things (like, wasting trillions in pointless wars, that never gets old).

 

[Crezth]

Not every Communist regime was as poverty-stricken as the USSR; we had plenty of food here

I always forget that you guys were behind the iron curtain. It's so weird that 25 years ago we couldn't have talked.

I think the USSR could have managed itself into solvency if leadership was interested in doing so. But, it wasn't. So. The continuance of space spending in the USSR was based on its legacy: it is useful for obtaining a strategic advantage over the Americans, and it is the thing we Russians did first. A scientific macguffin.

From what I know, science in Czechoslovakia was hampered more by the closed borders and the lack of free exchange of ideas than the lack of funds. The fact that many of these old guys who were doing science back then managed to make money post-1989 patenting stuff proves the human resources were well developed.

I believe it. Even poverty-stricken USSR had really good engineers during the '50s and '60s. But the mitigations of living in a police state do more than just a little to cut down on efficacy.

Today we're trying to *re-adopt* certain strategies the Commies used to use to make people interested in sciences. Somebody should be asking why we let our education system deteriorate so much in this respect.

What, you mean, like, sending people to the gulags if they don't build you an atomic bomb?

I am sure they mean "to do it again". The US went to the Moon to beat the Soviets in something to cement its leadership position in the world. It was a prestige project first, everything else (like, learning something about the Moon) was secondary.

Well, you can never be too sure if these loons are describing a structural weakness or a circumstantial flaw. At any rate, it's an idiotic point: NASA is more than capable of making another moon mission. We can probably do it better than the last wave, too. It just isn't in their list of Stuff-To-Do.

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

I'd be very surprised if there actually *was* life. And a bit scared. I kind of hope that such missions will show that life isn't *that* easy to evolve.

Why?

 

[Winner]

I always forget that you guys were behind the iron curtain. It's so weird that 25 years ago we couldn't have talked.

Tell me about that. Now we're an EU/NATO member and the first post-commie country to join ESA and the European Southern Observatory. Things change...

What, you mean, like, sending people to the gulags if they don't build you an atomic bomb?

That's a hyperbolic statement. What I meant was that education really instilled in people the notion that studying sciences and engineering was prestigious. Maybe it had to do with the fact that you just couldn't study humanities, law, or economics much, because that usually involved a lot of Marxism-Leninism along the way. Scientists on the other hand were reasonably free from ideological interference (unless they joined the dissent, of course).

But generally, I'd say science education even in primary/secondary school was better at engaging people in the Commie era. Now we're trying to pick up the good things about it again and transplant them to our current education system.

(It's actually a more general point - the need for post-communist countries to understand and appreciate that even though Communism was destructive, not everything the regime did was bad and we might have thrown away some good things because they were tainted by association.)

Why?

More competition to Earth-life

Seriously, I feel that if life was that common, its value would be somehow diminished. I am being irrational, I know.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

So North Korea is dismantling their rocket to fix it.

This is a big step forward for their space program in a weird way. Their previous launches were all fixed on 'significant' dates like the birth of Kim Il Jong or whatever. This meant that even if problems were found, they went ahead and launched because meeting the deadline date was as important as the launch itself.

This launch also had a 'significant' date tie-in, but they are going to miss it now that they are going to fix the problem. So they finally learned what everyone else figured out decades ago: sometimes you have to temporarily scrub a launch to ensure it happens at all.

 

[r16]

or maybe somebody wants less problems as invasion of Syria comes closer and Pyonyang had the initial downpayment . Can't say they are not good at business .

 

[Winner]

So North Korea is dismantling their rocket to fix it.

This is a big step forward for their space program in a weird way. Their previous launches were all fixed on 'significant' dates like the birth of Kim Il Jong or whatever. This meant that even if problems were found, they went ahead and launched because meeting the deadline date was as important as the launch itself.

This launch also had a 'significant' date tie-in, but they are going to miss it now that they are going to fix the problem. So they finally learned what everyone else figured out decades ago: sometimes you have to temporarily scrub a launch to ensure it happens at all.

Nothing but an ICBM test disguised as a satellite launch. Has anybody confirmed that they orbited something of significance?

If yes, the South Koreans will be a bit embarrassed...

 

[r16]

but why ? With the US Cavalry to the rescue ?

or this post could have been ever better with the claim that US doesn't like overflights , odd in the view of its own overflights of all sorts .

though the reality would still be Syria , sort of Commie satellites and doesn't that bay in the X-37B has a weapons pallette deployed ?

 

[Winner]

I don't want to go to military stuff here too much.

South Korea is taking part in the Asian space race and as such wants to show to Japan, China, and especially North Korea that its technology is sufficiently advanced to run its own space programme. That a half-starved Orwellian hellhole can orbit a satellite sooner than its infinitely richer southern neighbour will surely stir some criticism of the government.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

South Korea is taking part in the Asian space race and as such wants to show to Japan, China, and especially North Korea that its technology is sufficiently advanced to run its own space programme. That a half-starved Orwellian hellhole can orbit a satellite sooner than its infinitely richer southern neighbour will surely stir some criticism of the government.

Of course, the irony is that we actively encourage the South Koreans and Japanese to develop their own launchers. It is hypocritical, I must admit, then again, South Korea and Japan don't have nukes...

Nothing but an ICBM test disguised as a satellite launch. Has anybody confirmed that they orbited something of significance?

If yes, the South Koreans will be a bit embarrassed...

Eh, apparently there was confirmation that they reached orbit today, but I haven't found details or beep beep beep proof. They must've fixed it faster than I thought possible. I wonder if they managed to keep their deadline?

Some more on NK's rocket:

North Korea had warned of a possible delay to the launch for "technical reasons," although there was speculation that the real reason was political, that China was applying pressure behind the scenes. After all, Beijing had expressed "deep concern" over the test, and that is pretty strong for China, the North's closest diplomatic and economic ally.

Despite the rocket launch’s international reverberations, Pyongyang's motive was largely domestic, according to Stephanie Kleine-Ahlbrandt of the International Crisis Group, a non-governmental organization that works to prevent deadly conflict around the world.

The move was meant to boost the standing of the young Kim, who has not yet fully consolidated power, and whose credibility was damaged by the failure earlier this year of another attempt to put a satellite into orbit (a thinly disguised ballistic missile test in the view of the U.S. and her allies), she said.

I guess I could kind of see Kim using this as way to consolidate power. Not so sure how it will help with internal propoganda considering the previous 'launches' were considered 'resounding successes' by the North Korean internal media.

And we still haven't found nearly all the asteroid threats out there:

A newfound asteroid gave Earth a close shave early today, zipping between our planet and the moon just two days after astronomers first spotted it.

The near-Earth asteroid 2012 XE54, which was discovered Sunday, came within 140,000 miles (230,000 kilometers) of our planet at about 5 a.m. EST Tuesday, researchers said. For comparison, the moon orbits Earth at an average distance of 240,000 miles or so (386,000 km).

So far, researchers have spotted less than 30 percent of these large space rocks, which could obliterate an area the size of a state if they slammed into Earth.

 

[peter grimes]

I haven't been devoting any time to this thread, despite it being something I'm very interested in. So please forgive me it this post is abrupt - but I thought you all might appreciate this. From reddit:

Spoiler :

http://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/14rsqi/my_updated_chart_of_international_orbital_launch/

That asteroid surprise is completely frightening to me.

Reminds me of a scare I had in 1996. I was driving back from a friend's house at about 2am. I was not in an area that gets good radio reception, but I really needed to listen to something to help keep me awake. I knew the local public radio station would start tuning in after a few miles, so I left the dial there. I would catch syllables - fragments of words, sometimes a couple of words in a row. But not much.

"...really surprising that
static
"..North America, Eastern Seaboard..."
static
"... this one got past them.."
"...president's response..."
static
..."impact..."
this goes on for several miles. But the story I'm piecing together is one of those nightmare scenarios: An asteroid has been detected, and is expected to crash into the north atlantic. The Being in Connecticut, I had to decide where to flee to. So for the rest of the trip home I kept flipping around the dial trying to confirm this. I was also going through a list of what I needed to do when I got home so that I would waste as little time as possible.

My folks were down in Tennessee, my brother was in college in Alabama, and my sister was in college in Oregon. I decided going to Oregon made the most sense. I would load up my truck and could be in Detroit a little after lunchtime.

So my brain was totally buzzing the whole way home. Of course, I get home, and CNN isn't saying anything about this, nobody else is running news on TV at that hour, and this was *cough* pre-Internet - so there was nothing more I could do. I couldn't confirm the report, so I may as well get some sleep.

I was later able to determine that I had caught a little bit of a radio play - I started to fall for my own little War Of The Worlds

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I haven't been devoting any time to this thread, despite it being something I'm very interested in. So please forgive me it this post is abrupt - but I thought you all might appreciate this. From reddit:

Spoiler :

Nice pic!

That asteroid surprise is completely frightening to me.

It should scare the living hell out of everyone! On the one hand, you have serious efforts to find all the asteroids (I have no clue how they calculate the % of asteroids they have found). On the other, you have no salient international effort to back the search or to prepare to do anything about it if the doomsday asteroid is found.

Yeah, I'm happy some agencies are looking into it and that scientists study the problem. But it's a big issue that needs more attention.

I do think that if the manned asteroid landing mission actually happens, (not holding my breath) then people will take more interest in this and push for action. Who knows though.

I was later able to determine that I had caught a little bit of a radio play - I started to fall for my own little War Of The Worlds

That's really funny! Did you call anyone and ask about the 'impending doom' you heard about on the radio?

 

[peter grimes]

That's really funny! Did you call anyone and ask about the 'impending doom' you heard about on the radio?

Yeah, i tried to call my sister in Oregon, but she didn't answer. I left her a message saying something like "If this is true, I'll be heading your way and I'll call you from every gas station. If this isn't true, I'll call you tomorrow to confirm that I'm not driving west".

See, back in the old days, we didn't have text messaging and cell phones

Things are MUCH easier now, at least as long as the cel towers are working

A few years ago we were camping in western Massachusetts, and there were some guys doing a short-wave radio transmission exercise. Every few months people all over the country (maybe the world?) go off the grid and try to set up a comm network. It's a really smart idea, and likely pretty fun for all involved. At first I thought they might be militia-style survivalists, but after talking with them a bit I realized it wasn't like that at all. Imagine if that asteroid had hit in Lake Superior - those guys might be the only ones spreading info around, considering the power grid to the whole Eastern US and Canada might be scrapped.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah my first reaction when reading

go off the grid and try to set up a comm network

was "KKK/Freedom militias" . It's cool this is not the case.

 

[r16]

And we still haven't found nearly all the asteroid threats out there:

"provided" with a MOO2 that plays up to the first GNN report -as an inspiration and reference for a CivIII scenario that might or might not happen- ı have this feeling that nobody has played the game in USAF . That missile bases don't work against comets and their eagerness to save the world still looks like a PR move to militarise the space , you know only because they can .

 

[peter grimes]

"provided" with a MOO2 that plays up to the first GNN report -as an inspiration and reference for a CivIII scenario that might or might not happen- ı have this feeling that nobody has played the game in USAF . That missile bases don't work against comets and their eagerness to save the world still looks like a PR move to militarise the space , you know only because they can .

Anyone with any understanding of ballistics knows that this is the case. Anyone who claims that a comet or asteroid that's in danger of colliding with earth can simply be nuked should be ignored, since they're showing that they know not a thing about the subject.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Eh, not so much Peter. A few years ago the consensus was that nukes were worthless for knocking an asteroid or comet out of the way. Many scientists have come back around on that - it's not a great first option given all the possible unintended side effects - but in a pinch 20K nukes is better than 0 nukes when it comes to dealing with asteroids and comets (especially if we found one that was going to impact us in <5 years or some short time interval).

The focus has been on studying how to detonate a nuke just under the surface in such a way that it provides a massive impulse to changes the asteroid/comet's orbit.

 

[peter grimes]

Eh, not so much Peter. A few years ago the consensus was that nukes were worthless for knocking an asteroid or comet out of the way. Many scientists have come back around on that - it's not a great first option given all the possible unintended side effects - but in a pinch 20K nukes is better than 0 nukes when it comes to dealing with asteroids and comets (especially if we found one that was going to impact us in <5 years or some short time interval).

The focus has been on studying how to detonate a nuke just under the surface in such a way that it provides a massive impulse to changes the asteroid/comet's orbit.

Exactly - that's very different than simply 'blowing it up'. The matter doesn't go away - instead of a single slug travelling in a path it becomes a shotgun blast.