The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

Warned for flaming
That woman was fully intending to sleep with someone that night.



She didn't just put herself into a situation that made it "easier" to rape her, she was dressed provocatively and even provoked the man who raped her to do so by approaching him and talking to him first. She "obviously" was actively pursuing someone to attack her so she could pass it off as being unwilling later! We'll just disregard even physical signs of her resisting...why not!

-

I again reiterate that victim blaming is bad.

Such things are easy to say, especially when you disregard evidence. Like the other things Rittenhouse brought with him. Like the fact that he backed away, then ran away from his assailants. Like the fact that all of the people who got shot first approached him (not the other way around), then attacked him physically, even as he attempted to remove himself from the situation. But apparently, none of this matters according to quoted, and it's okay to victim blame him, despite that all of these came out as facts during the trial, and nearly all of them were alleged by the prosecution, in advance.

Using something he said days prior in a different context while sitting down and talking to a friend, then not acting on it --> similar to claiming that because the woman said she was looking to hook up to one of her friends a few days before, that she was intending/looking to be assaulted...asinine.

Okay, you know what, if this is seriously the kind of thing you think is a valid argument and comparison, then screw even having this discussion, because you obviously just have your head stuck way too far up your own ass for this to be remotely productive.
Moderator Action: Warned for flaming. The_J
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If a bar tender sells you too many drinks and you kill folks while driving home, the bartender is liable. False causal attribution?
Without knowing any details you may be alluding to, but yes? The "do not sell more booze to drunks" laws are not generally followed, and when they are they are more about "not selling booze when they may pass out" rather than "not selling booze when they may be over the drink drive limit". How many bar sales would be legal if you had to be under 35μg/100ml to get served?
 
So in my case, I'm (high functioning) autistic. Depending on who creates the psych test, or even who administers it, that could very easily disqualify me from firearms ownership. You could just as easily tweak said test to try to filter out the poor or minority groups, like how IQ tests show different results.
The logic goes something like- I have never broken the law in my life, or even committed any acts of violence. I will pass any background check with flying colors. Why should I have to pay the government in both time and money to prove that I'm a functional and sane adult when my actions clearly already have?

I have never taken such a test, but I imagine they don't care about autism; they seek to establish if the person is violent or will be irrationally afraid and thus prone to use the gun when not strictly needed etc (that's what I imagine, again, I am not familiar with how it works) :)
 
You'd be surprised. If you want a medical license to use marijuana in Illinois, for example, they revoke your ability to hold a FOID(Firearm Owner Identity Card). The reason doesn't matter.
 
If a bar tender sells you too many drinks and you kill folks while driving home, the bartender is liable. False causal attribution?

Yes. Who bought the alcohol? Who consumed it? Who got behind the wheel, then drove the vehicle? I'll give you a hint: it's not the bartender. Or any of this person's friends, who could purchase alcohol in his stead or serve as an alternative to stopping the person from driving.

Holding the bartender liable in this context is about as competent as holding a department store liable because someone purchased a ladder and then jumped off it.

My impression is that this kind of event can happen without anyone being a criminal.

On reflection, you're right. You could have scenarios where two people feel threatened, despite not doing something wrong. Or other similar cases. But in this case, where the self defense was accepted on the grounds that the person was being assaulted (which is a crime), affirming it reasonably implies that the crime happened.
 
On reflection, you're right. You could have scenarios where two people feel threatened, despite not doing something wrong. Or other similar cases. But in this case, where the self defense was accepted on the grounds that the person was being assaulted (which is a crime), affirming it reasonably implies that the crime happened.
I am not in a position to really comment on US law (and I hate it when people give videos as "evidence", but it is what I have), but Legal Eagle (who at least claims to be a real lawyer) thinks the opposite, that it is quite possible that both Rittenhouse and those he shot could have successfully claimed self defence.

Spoiler Youtube :
[EDIT]Seriously? Of all the stuff on youtube video of Rittenhouse shotting people is too "age appropriate" to embed?
 
I am not in a position to really comment on US law (and I hate it when people give videos as "evidence", but it is what I have), but Legal Eagle (who at least claims to be a real lawyer) thinks the opposite, that it is quite possible that both Rittenhouse and those he shot could have successfully claimed self defence.

Legal eagle is...questionable. He is a lawyer, but criminal law is not his specialty IIRC.

There is no way you can approach/chase someone + assault them, then claim self defense. That's not how "defense" works.
 
Legal eagle is...questionable. He is a lawyer, but criminal law is not his specialty IIRC.

There is no way you can approach/chase someone + assault them, then claim self defense. That's not how "defense" works.
You can claim the closely related defense of defense of others. I guess I should have used that wording, but it is basically the same law in most places.
 
On reflection, you're right. You could have scenarios where two people feel threatened, despite not doing something wrong. Or other similar cases. But in this case, where the self defense was accepted on the grounds that the person was being assaulted (which is a crime), affirming it reasonably implies that the crime happened.

The assault happened. As you know, you can have a non-criminal assault and you can therefore have a non-criminal self-defense against a non-criminal assault. I don't remember all the details, but I am really under the impression that some of the people involved thought they were stopping an active shooter. They were wrong, and therefore Rittenhouse legally defended himself. But their assaults themselves don't necessarily make them 'criminals' (which is the inflammatory claim that I was contenting).

Not my country, but I think this is just the outcome of a self-defense system that arms scared people in tense situations and then relies on politeness to prevent death. If I valued the liberty of carrying around a gun, this would just be the price of that freedom. The Opportunity Cost of a system, just like how home invaders would have more power in a system that didn't allow pre-prepared home defense weapons would be the Opportunity Cost of my country's system. It's always going to be dilemmas.
 
You can claim the closely related defense of defense of others. I guess I should have used that wording, but it is basically the same law in most places.

You can claim to personally alter Jupiter's orbit, too.

None of the criminals assaulting him did anything resembling "defense of others", nor could they present a fact pattern where they might reasonably have believed that.

But their assaults themselves don't necessarily make them 'criminals' (which is the inflammatory claim that I was contenting).

Well, based on my observation, their behavior in the context of the riot was criminal. But they also had criminal history in addition. The guy with the pistol was possessing it illegally, for instance. The first guy to assault Rittenhouse had a nasty history.

Also, running up behind someone who is in a public place and not...actively shooting, at all...does not afford much plausibility that the victim is an "active shooter". That's not what active shooter means.
 
You can claim to personally alter Jupiter's orbit, too.

None of the criminals assaulting him did anything resembling "defense of others", nor could they present a fact pattern where they might reasonably have believed that.
Pointing a gun at someone is usually considered a threat. I reckon they would have a good chance, but I really am not in a position to say.
 
Pointing a gun at someone is usually considered a threat. I reckon they would have a good chance, but I really am not in a position to say.

Per the trial, none of these clowns had the rifle pointed at them until *after* they assaulted him, so that wouldn't work.
 
Per the trial, none of these clowns had the rifle pointed at them until *after* they assaulted him, so that wouldn't work.
But an observer (the guy with a gun of his own IIRC) would have seen Rittenhouse pointing a gun at someone without a gun and could have surmised that it was an "active shooter" incident and legal acted in defense of others (possibly).
 
Stephen Paddock is grateful that you think that stopping an active shooter should be preceded by paralysing self-doubt. As I've said, I prefer my system, where if I see an active firearm, I can presume that it's hostile. It just allows more reaction time for the good guys.
 
Yes. Who bought the alcohol? Who consumed it? Who got behind the wheel, then drove the vehicle? I'll give you a hint: it's not the bartender. Or any of this person's friends, who could purchase alcohol in his stead or serve as an alternative to stopping the person from driving.

Holding the bartender liable in this context is about as competent as holding a department store liable because someone purchased a ladder and then jumped off it.
The law in NM requires that servers be trained in spotting drunk behavior and that they have knowledge in how many drinks a person of x size/weight can have per hour not exceed limits and the law holds that if a server continues to sell drinks to a drunk person, they can be held (to some degree) responsible for later DWI accidents. Drunk folks often don't know they are drunk or recognize how impaired they are. To keep selling them alcohol is improper and very easy to do. Drunks are high profit margin customers.
 
Moderator Action: Enough Rittenhouse here. He has his own thread.
 
Holding the bartender liable in this context is about as competent as holding a department store liable because someone purchased a ladder and then jumped off it.
It's part of the deal when it comes to serving alcohol. Technically, a drunk person cannot consent to purchasing more liquor, no more than they can sign a mortgage. Society struggles on how to apportion responsibility but "handing someone alcohol" is an intervention that's causal.

You should probably watch more Legal Eagle. The fact that you're questioning this means that whatever basal assumptions about how the law 'should' work entirely disagrees with qualified judges and Common Law throughout much of the developed world. In this instance, you're just wrong. That means that your foundation is faulty. This is your Dunning-Kruger moment.
 
The law in NM requires that servers be trained in spotting drunk behavior and that they have knowledge in how many drinks a person of x size/weight can have per hour not exceed limits and the law holds that if a server continues to sell drinks to a drunk person, they can be held (to some degree) responsible for later DWI accidents. Drunk folks often don't know they are drunk or recognize how impaired they are. To keep selling them alcohol is improper and very easy to do. Drunks are high profit margin customers.
What is the limits they are trained to not except? The drink drive limit would not be what most people call drunk, nor what most people would consider a night out. There is a reason to have a designated driver, so everyone else can drink more than the limit. Are bartenders supposed to stop anyone getting over the drink drive limit?
 
The law in NM requires that servers be trained in spotting drunk behavior and that they have knowledge in how many drinks a person of x size/weight can have per hour not exceed limits and the law holds that if a server continues to sell drinks to a drunk person, they can be held (to some degree) responsible for later DWI accidents. Drunk folks often don't know they are drunk or recognize how impaired they are. To keep selling them alcohol is improper and very easy to do. Drunks are high profit margin customers.

Trash law should not inform/contribute to the generation of more trash law.

People at varying levels of intoxication behave very differently to each other. Not every venue can reasonably keep track of what their customers drink, especially if they buy for each other. Finally, you do not need very much alcohol in your system to be a much higher risk to others than normal while driving, or to have impaired judgment. Someone having 3-5 drinks is already there. Blaming a bartender because a person who willingly purchases and consumes alcohol didn't know their limits is, in fact, a false attribution of cause. An unrealistic and unfair standard.

It's part of the deal when it comes to serving alcohol. Technically, a drunk person cannot consent to purchasing more liquor, no more than they can sign a mortgage. Society struggles on how to apportion responsibility but "handing someone alcohol" is an intervention that's causal.

Ah yes, this is also the scenario where two people get drunk and you get a "Shrodinger's rape", where by that rationale the person is both raping and being raped, at the same time, because they're drunk and can't consent.

Or...we could hold people responsible for what they do when the willingly consume drugs, and not falsely assign cause to someone else for the person's poor judgment.

Even rate of drinking will influence how drunk someone gets. In college, I could easily have 8+ drinks in one night. But if I attempted to have 5 in 30 minutes, it wouldn't end well. I was fortunate enough to learn that lesson by watching someone else do it. I would be a non-trivial risk to kill people if behind a wheel at like, 2-3 drinks. I even tested that by playing Madden while drunk and noting the deficiency in my user control of a defender compared to normal. This is not a reasonable thing to place on the seller.

You should probably watch more Legal Eagle. The fact that you're questioning this means that whatever basal assumptions about how the law 'should' work entirely disagrees with qualified judges and Common Law throughout much of the developed world. In this instance, you're just wrong. That means that your foundation is faulty. This is your Dunning-Kruger moment.

Do not confuse my position on what law should be with my understanding of what law is. My understanding of law is obviously incomplete, but my discussion in this thread is also about *shouldness*, not just what the law is.

There are a lot of bullcrap laws. Obscenity law, civil forfeiture law, arbitrary bans on random gun part laws, family law/court, and yes, laws that falsely attribute cause to someone rather than assigning responsibility to the bad actor(s) are examples. These range from badly constructed, to flat out dishonest/awful (civil forfeiture objectively violates due process and legalizes banditry, but SCOTUS didn't care. I also wouldn't care if people started treating acts of banditry as banditry in response).

The lawyers I do watch on occasion on YouTube are less meme-tier.
 
What is the limits they are trained to not except? The drink drive limit would not be what most people call drunk, nor what most people would consider a night out. There is a reason to have a designated driver, so everyone else can drink more than the limit. Are bartenders supposed to stop anyone getting over the drink drive limit?
Servers are expected to notice who has had too much and stop serving them.
Hereis the entire law. Go to the bottom of page 15. It won't let me copy paste. The blood alcohol level is .14 for DWI it is .08

Page 5 details penalties for overserving.

https://www.nmrestaurants.org/wp-co...E2017-Revised-4_25_17-and-5_30_17-website.pdf
 
Back
Top Bottom