The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[Lexicus]

I guess the density rather than per head rate would matter if most homicide is simply an accident of location. Which doesn't seem like that'd be it. Unless, of course, the people are immobile. Like in wheelchairs, or women in the early 19th century. Or if suicide is spontaneous instead of culmination of factors over time.

I think the density of people clearly matters with regard to opportunity to commit homicides. I don't think spatial distribution of people is relevant to suicide in the same way.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

do you think that "gang violence" should be discounted as a factor for calculating urban crime? In some ways, it would seem to be the kind of thing that could be treated as an outlier, possibly especially in the case of determining appropriate gun-control measures... but I am curious about your take on it.

i don't know about discounted, because it *is* crime and it seems urban conditions are a factor in it. that said, it's sufficiently different from other types of crime that it might deserve it's own categorization instead. i'm not keen on the idea of handwaving it away though...even if it can't be removed entirely, it would be better for a *lot* of people if it were minimized.

Yes these factors you list are the things that were making me lean towards expecting that the lower populated areas would be the ones having less crime, however, it looks like the sites folks are linking might tell a different story. I will have to check these articles out.

i only gave it a quick pass, but seems like per capita homicide is higher in rural...but also that this seems to have accelerated very recently (< 20yr)? i'll want to look at that more carefully later. i would be surprised if this tracks into crime in general too.

 

[Farm Boy]

Then, if it is already controlled "per capita," "density" is what besides "spatial?"

 

[Hygro]

every person you add to an area (cities) increases, as in increasing returns to scale, its social factors per capita including:
shared energy use (increased efficiency)
income
income inequality
patents
murders

 

[uppi]

I think the density of people clearly matters with regard to opportunity to commit homicides.

In which way though? Most homicides are targeted at people the perpetrator knows instead of at random people. I don't think people density matters much for target selection.

And density might impact the survival chance. In cities, other people might intervene and help might come in time. If the nearest neighbor is kilometers away, no one will notice until it is too late.

My hypothesis is that regarding domestic violence, cities are safer than rural areas.

 

[Akka]

And density might impact the survival chance. In cities, other people might intervene and help might come in time. If the nearest neighbor is kilometers away, no one will notice until it is too late.

Actually, the bystander effect ends up giving the opposed result. Population density not only increases the chance of crime just because of raw number of people, but also because it change people's behaviour.

 

[uppi]

Actually, the bystander effect ends up giving the opposed result. Population density not only increases the chance of crime just because of raw number of people, but also because it change people's behaviour.

The bystander effect does decrease effectiveness of help. But for it to apply, there need to be actual bystanders, some of which might help after all. If there are none, there will be no help in any case.

The effect might also be overblown:
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/amp0000469

Using a unique cross-national video dataset from the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, and South Africa (N = 219), we show that in 9 of 10 public conflicts, at least 1 bystander, but typically several, will do something to help. We record similar likelihoods of intervention across the 3 national contexts, which differ greatly in levels of perceived public safety. Finally, we find that increased bystander presence is related to a greater likelihood that someone will intervene.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

what is the minimum action required for it to count as intervention? calling police?

 

[Sommerswerd]

what is the minimum action required for it to count as intervention? calling police?

I think the presence/availability of heathcare facilities nearby counts into the intervention factor as well. If you live in remote locations, access becomes more limited, right?

 

[uppi]

what is the minimum action required for it to count as intervention? calling police?

I don't have access to the article itself, but from a blog post describing the paper:

A bystander was considered an intervener if they tried to placate the conflict through pacifying gestures, calming touches, blocking contact between conflict parties, holding, pushing or pulling an aggressor away, or providing help to a physically harmed victim.

I suspect, calling the police was not counted, because the action would be difficult to identify from CCTV footage.

 

[Kyriakos]

What about intervening to help the attacker?

 

[zxcvbob]

What about intervening to help the attacker?

That actually happens.

(the commentator needs to shut up and let the video speak for itself)

 

[Lexicus]

That actually happens.

(the commentator needs to shut up and let the video speak for itself)

It's almost like using deadly violence to resolve disputes privately is a terrible idea

 

[Kyriakos]

That actually happens.

(the commentator needs to shut up and let the video speak for itself)

"Hurry up!"

 

[Lexicus]

My guess is re: the pardoning of that murderer, if the pardon happens I assumr Garland will hit him with federal charges related to violating the victim's civil rights

 

[Sommerswerd]

Killing people to protect other people's property is different from killing people to protect your own property, and those are both in turn, very different, from killing people to protect other people, or finally, killing people to protect yourself. I've no idea which dynamic(s) were at play in the examples mentioned in the video.

 

[choxorn]

My guess is re: the pardoning of that murderer, if the pardon happens I assumr Garland will hit him with federal charges related to violating the victim's civil rights

that would require Garland to actually do something for a change

 

[EgonSpengler]

Hey, guys, I don't know if you knew this, but it turns out Ted Cruz is kind of a dip[stick].

Insider, 12 April 2023 - "Ted Cruz said school shootings can be prevented if they have armed guards, like in banks. That aged poorly after the deadly Louisville bank shooting."

Texas Sen. Ted Cruz proposed a solution to school shootings: Stationing as many armed police officers in schools as there are in banks.

Less than two weeks later, a shooter in Kentucky opened fire at a bank, killing at least five people and injuring eight others.

So who wants to be the next (first?) person in this thread to say "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"? In some parts of this country, you can run for office on that [drivel].

 

[EgonSpengler]

Hm. Well, I can't actually find whether the bank in Louisville had a guard, armed or otherwise, with a quick Google search. I skimmed a few news articles, and none of them specify, one way or the other.

Ted Cruz is still a donkey, though.

 

[EgonSpengler]

The more I learn, the more I want to move to Canada.

The Week, 12 April 2023 - "AR-15 used in Louisville bank murders will be auctioned off under Kentucky law, Louisville mayor laments"

Louisville Mayor Craig Greenberg told reporters that under a 1998 Kentucky law, "the assault rifle that was used to murder five of our neighbors and shoot at rescuing police officers will one day be auctioned off," and more likely than not, "that murder weapon will be back on the streets." He said all he can do, legally, is remove the firing pins from the confiscated weapons, adding, "It's time to change this law and let us destroy illegal guns and destroy the guns that have been used to kill our friends and kill our neighbors."

Louisville Courier-Journal, 16 February 2023 - "Firing pins and warning labels: How Louisville plans to skirt Kentucky's gun auction law"

It’s unclear how many auctioned guns end up being used in crimes, as no agency in the state tracks that data.

But two years ago, a Courier Journal investigation of State Police and Louisville police records uncovered more than two dozen examples of guns sold at auction later resurfacing in criminal cases across the city.