The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots...

[Princeps]

Maybe it has a literal meaning.

 

[Damnyankee]

Taxes are unconstitutional! You are one of those anarcho-capitalists!

I consider myself a Confederation Minarchist. Though, my beliefs are similar.

 

[Kozmos]

So it justifies the Iraqi invasion? Yeah sure....why not.

 

[bhsup]

It just means you have to be prepared to shoot back when they come to take away your guns.

 

[plarq]

When tyrants coming, people cheers.

Hell with liberty!
Line with Cult of Personality!

 

[Phlegmak]

Taxes, lmao. Nobody has the right to take my money that I earned.

How should roads be paid for? Just curious.

 

[Rambuchan]

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

What do you think Thomas Jefferson meant by this quote? I always thought it meant to say that inevitably, a tyrant will arise in a free society, and patriots(the people), must dispose that person. Agree, disagree?

I agree with your reading of it.

It's still relevant today, of course. There are many other examples (like the Patriot Act and warrantless spying on citizens and detention without charge or trial) that are more damning about the state of liberty in your nation than those you've offered.

There are other quotes from Jefferson that indicate his continued relevance and his distrust of government left unchecked, like this one:

"The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them."

http://www.bartleby.com/73/1245.html

The quotes are also quite typical of Jeffersonian Democracy, as follows:

In its core ideals it is characterized by the following elements, which the Jeffersonians expressed in their speeches and legislation:

* The core political value of America is representative Democracy; citizens have a civic duty to aid the state and resist corruption, especially monarchism and aristocracy.[1]
* The yeoman farmer best exemplifies virtue and independence from corrupting city influences; government policy should be for his benefit. Financiers, bankers and industrialists make cities the cesspools of corruption, and should be avoided.[2]
* Americans have a duty to spread what Jefferson called the "Empire of Liberty" to the world, but should avoid "entangling alliances."[3]
* The national government is a dangerous necessity to be instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security of the people, nation or community; it should be watched closely and circumscribed in its powers. Most Anti-Federalists from 1787-88 joined the Jeffersonians.[4]
* Republicanism, also known as representative democracy, is the best form of government and representative democracy is needed to prevent the tyranny by the majority, as Madison explained in Federalist No. 10
* The wall of separation between church and state is the best method to keep religion free from intervention by the federal government, government free of religious disputes, and religion free from corruption by government.[5]
* The federal government must not violate the rights of individuals. The Bill of Rights is a central theme.[6]
* The federal government must not violate the rights of the states. The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions of 1798 (written secretly by Jefferson and Madison) proclaim these principles.[7]
* Freedom of speech and the press is the best method to prevent the tyranny of the people by their own government. The Federalists' violation of this idea through the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 became a major issue.[8]
* A standing army and navy are dangerous to liberty and should be avoided; much better was to use economic coercion such as the embargo.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffersonian_democracy

 

[Perfection]

Taxes, lmao. Nobody has the right to take my money that I earned.

The only governments that don't run on taxes are those that have nationalized resource extraction. It's a neccessary thing. And really taxes don't prevent any particular thing for you to do.

The fact that prostitution is illegal in the majority of the US. It is a womens right to do what they want with there bodies as long as others are not hurt. That being said, mandatory drug testing for johns and whores, lmao

Drug laws. Again, it should not be illegal for a person to do what they want with there bodies. Look at it this way. A guy takes cocaine and has a heart attack, he survives and is then arrested for possession. A guy attempts to kill himself, has a heart attack. Both do the same things, except the man trying to kill himself gets treated and released from a hospital, while the man who snorted cocaine was trying to enjoy himself.

Those are definetly legitimate beefs but I can't say that makes the US government "particularly unfree" whem compared to the freedoms not had in other countries.

But my remarks were directed more toward Pasi, who's a friggin' commie.

 

[philippe]

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

What do you think Thomas Jefferson meant by this quote?

build a sacrificial altar in Washington DC and start sacrificing them republicans!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

no, i guess he meant that liberty has to be fought but that for every war there is a price to pay on both sides yet that it is needed for survival.
damn ram you really sum it up... damn my conclusion pretty sucks now

 

[Masquerouge]

I really do not like this quote. Some sort of half-assed feel-good metaphor, that's what it is.

If people did their democratic duties and paid attention to what was going on, no patriotic blood would need to be shed on any trees of liberty.

 

[GinandTonic]

What Ram said, and what Masque said too.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

I really do not like this quote. Some sort of half-assed feel-good metaphor, that's what it is.

If people did their democratic duties and paid attention to what was going on, no patriotic blood would need to be shed on any trees of liberty.

How could it strike you as feel-good? I've always read it as precisely the opposite.

It seems to say that tyranny will rise again inevitably and there always have to be men there who will die to overthrow it. Pretty grim really.

 

[GinandTonic]

Perhaps tub-thumping would be more accurate than feel-good.

 

[Damnyankee]

How should roads be paid for? Just curious.

Oh, thats not curiosity, you are attempting to find a hole in my argument and exploit it, lmao. I've been here long enough to know that tactic, lmao. Anyway, roads should be funded by taxes and private businesses. Now, this would seem quite contradictory, however, look at what I said again. The government does not have the right to tax the people, that is correct. However, every government in the history of man has had rights. However, in each government, certain rights are surrendered for the good of the rest. Thus, I propose that the IRS be disbanded, along with the federal government, and for the towns and cities to become "states" unto themselves. In free union with the rest of the towns and cities for common defense. Also, taxes would be at the very local level. A referendum would be held every year on what taxes to enact and get rid of. The people would, in other words, be voluntarily taxed. People are more or less, stupid at the national level, at least the majority. However, every man and woman knows what needs to be done very near to home.

 

[Paradigne]

That will be our motto as we march to DC and lynch the senate.

 

[Masquerouge]

How could it strike you as feel-good? I've always read it as precisely the opposite.

It seems to say that tyranny will rise again inevitably and there always have to be men there who will die to overthrow it. Pretty grim really.

Yeah, maybe feel-good was not the best way to express what I wanted to say: basically, what I meant was this is a quote that people say to feel good about themselves, "watch me being a patriot!", not feel good in general...

 

[Perfection]

Oh, thats not curiosity, you are attempting to find a hole in my argument and exploit it, lmao. I've been here long enough to know that tactic, lmao. Anyway, roads should be funded by taxes and private businesses. Now, this would seem quite contradictory, however, look at what I said again. The government does not have the right to tax the people, that is correct. However, every government in the history of man has had rights. However, in each government, certain rights are surrendered for the good of the rest. Thus, I propose that the IRS be disbanded, along with the federal government, and for the towns and cities to become "states" unto themselves. In free union with the rest of the towns and cities for common defense. Also, taxes would be at the very local level. A referendum would be held every year on what taxes to enact and get rid of. The people would, in other words, be voluntarily taxed. People are more or less, stupid at the national level, at least the majority. However, every man and woman knows what needs to be done very near to home.

If states and localities can morally tax why not the federal government? What's the big difference between 3 million people being taxed by a government versus 30 million versus 300 million?

 

[Damnyankee]

If states and localities can morally tax why not the federal government? What's the big difference between 3 million people being taxed by a government versus 30 million versus 300 million?

Because a federal government isn't tailored to the needs of small villages/towns and even cities. One thing might apply to one place, and another thing to another place. It is much easier and streamlined for local towns and cities to decide on its own affairs (Roads and such).

 

[Perfection]

Because a federal government isn't tailored to the needs of small villages/towns and even cities. One thing might apply to one place, and another thing to another place. It is much easier and streamlined for local towns and cities to decide on its own affairs (Roads and such).

Not for all things, what about stuff like Airports, military, Interstate Freeways, waterways, transtate environmental issues like acid rain, coastlines, international politics, traffic regulations, communication networks, and all that jazz?

Those needs should be addressed at a national level.

 

[Damnyankee]

Not for all things, what about stuff like Airports, military, Interstate Freeways, waterways, transtate environmental issues like acid rain, coastlines, international politics, traffic regulations, communication networks, and all that jazz?

Those needs should be addressed at a national level.

Well, I think I said it in another thread, that these minarchist states would band together in a confederation providing for the common defense. Thus, a leader of the confederation would handle foreign affairs. Traffic regulations would be agreed upon by all the cities/towns in a direct vote. Communication would also be handled at the National government, agreed upon in a vote. The interstate would be handled in the national government through a direct vote. In other words, the Confederation would handle interstate infrastructure and defense, and these Minarchist states would handle everything else.