The Ugly side of Pro-Choice....

[El_Machinae]

It's entirely a misunderstanding of how people are assigning 'life essence' to the zygote. I think there's a mental gap here. I can honestly understand why people would think that a zygote has a soul. I get it. The zygote is alive and on its way of being a human. Twinning, even, is an intuitive concept. The zygote had one soul, and now it has two - due to the twinning event. Why does the soul enter at twinning? I don't know. But it's easy to see that it does.

However, other aspects of the biology then confuse me. If the zygote has a soul and is alive, then that soul only disappears when the zygote (or its organism) dies, right? That makes easy sense to me. If we cryogenically freeze a zygote, it's still alive, with its soul. It is the chimera that confuses me. The twin zygotes merge to become one fetus. Some of the cells are from zygote A and some are from zygote B. Importantly: both zygotes are alive. They never die, they just fuse into one being.

Now, scientific understanding is that there's one person. Spiritual understanding is very confused. There WERE two souls, and neither of them died. So, are there two souls? I don't see any way around it. There must be.

 

[Flying Pig]

Now, scientific understanding is that there's one person. Spiritual understanding is very confused. There WERE two souls, and neither of them died. So, are there two souls? I don't see any way around it. There must be.

Well, can we not derive that since 'persons' A and B combined to form person C, then person C has its own soul which is a combination of A and B but seperate from them? However I still think Truronian's points are correct.

 

[El_Machinae]

Then it gets crazy confusing!

If I am a Parkinson's patient, I have my own soul. We can take an embryo (which is alive, and has its own soul) and nurture it into a state appropriate for implantation. The embryo never died, and so retains its soul. We then implant the cells into an essential portion of my brain, and it differentiates and integrates into my consciousness.

At that point, there are two 'organisms' in my brain. Both of them are perceived as 'me', because they've each integrated into my consciousness. My soul and the embryo soul integrated to become a new soul?

Truronian (as usual) makes a good point, however he's incorrect regarding the timeline of consciousness. The biologies necessary for consciousness are merely forming in the 24 week stage, and are obviously absent before 22 weeks (I give a 2 week window out of an obligation towards extreme conservatism on my part). I am not saying that awareness starts at ~24 weeks, merely that it's impossible before then. (By analogy, if you were looking at someone who was missing eyes, you'd know that they could not see. However, just because someone has eyes, you do not know that they CAN see. The absent eyes, though, are sufficient definitive proof regarding the state of visual capability)

 

[Truronian]

Truronian (as usual) makes a good point, however he's incorrect regarding the timeline of consciousness. The biologies necessary for consciousness are merely forming in the 24 week stage, and are obviously absent before 22 weeks (I give a 2 week window out of an obligation towards extreme conservatism on my part). I am not saying that awareness starts at ~24 weeks, merely that it's impossible before then. (By analogy, if you were looking at someone who was missing eyes, you'd know that they could not see. However, just because someone has eyes, you do not know that they CAN see. The absent eyes, though, are sufficient definitive proof regarding the state of visual capability)

I'm going to claim that 22 falls within the set of 20ish numbers.

 

[Flying Pig]

Good God this is getting complicated, but I think I'll give the philosophy a go, but in the spirit of amicable discussion rather than an argument which I know I'm going to lose.

Then it gets crazy confusing!

If I am a Parkinson's patient, I have my own soul. We can take an embryo (which is alive, and has its own soul) and nurture it into a state appropriate for implantation. The embryo never died, and so retains its soul. We then implant the cells into an essential portion of my brain, and it differentiates and integrates into my consciousness.

At that point, there are two 'organisms' in my brain. Both of them are perceived as 'me', because they've each integrated into my consciousness. My soul and the embryo soul integrated to become a new soul?

I think that if we take as given that an embryo had a soul, and that a soul is a physical entity (both of which you can dispute), then it must be the case that in this situation the embryo's soul is subsumed in some way into the patient's, possibly altering it in some way depending on what the content of a soul is (to use an IT analogy - is it the program, or the file name?)

(By analogy, if you were looking at someone who was missing eyes, you'd know that they could not see. However, just because someone has eyes, you do not know that they CAN see. The absent eyes, though, are sufficient definitive proof regarding the state of visual capability)

Fantastic point. I'd be interested to know precisely what these 'biologies necessary for consciousness' are, but I'd be inclined to agree with your timeline. However I think the discussion is pointless to be honest because the anti-abortion lobby on this site is arguing that these biologies are not required for a foetus to 'count' as human.

 

[Senethro]

Two questions:

If zygotes have souls and god causes the majority of zygotes to die even after fertilization, does this mean heaven is mostly filled with the souls of people who never even breathed?

Can a woman charge a foetus rent given that it is squatting on her property?

 

[Communisto]

And so did the Nazi leaders when on trial. What's the difference?

Interesting, I'll remember that comparison next time you advocate that people follow laws, ever

 

[Lone Wolf]

does this mean Hell is mostly filled with the souls of people who never even breathed?

Fixed .

 

[tycoonist]

Interesting, I'll remember that comparison next time you advocate that people follow laws, ever

I've been considering making a big book of Domy quotes, so I can accuse him of hypocrisy every seventh second..

 

[useless]

Comparing abortion to the holocaust is the preserve of the desperate LULU

 

[JollyRoger]

The ugly side of pro-life:

Having an abortion does not increase the risk of mental health problems, but having a baby does, one of the largest studies to compare the aftermath of both decisions suggests.

http://www.salon.com/news/abortion/index.html?story=/news/feature/2011/01/26/us_med_abortion_mental_health

 

[Traitorfish]

And so did the Nazi leaders when on trial. What's the difference?

The world was brave enough to bring the Nazi leadership to trial, whatever the cost. In comparison, your campaign against the "silent holocaust" is of the most ineffectual and cowardly sort.

 

[Communisto]

Also, you know, a trial kind of implies the application of laws.

 

[El_Machinae]

Moderator Action: Again, please post civilly, people
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[GhostWriter16]

It's entirely a misunderstanding of how people are assigning 'life essence' to the zygote. I think there's a mental gap here. I can honestly understand why people would think that a zygote has a soul. I get it. The zygote is alive and on its way of being a human. Twinning, even, is an intuitive concept. The zygote had one soul, and now it has two - due to the twinning event. Why does the soul enter at twinning? I don't know. But it's easy to see that it does.

However, other aspects of the biology then confuse me. If the zygote has a soul and is alive, then that soul only disappears when the zygote (or its organism) dies, right? That makes easy sense to me. If we cryogenically freeze a zygote, it's still alive, with its soul. It is the chimera that confuses me. The twin zygotes merge to become one fetus. Some of the cells are from zygote A and some are from zygote B. Importantly: both zygotes are alive. They never die, they just fuse into one being.

Now, scientific understanding is that there's one person. Spiritual understanding is very confused. There WERE two souls, and neither of them died. So, are there two souls? I don't see any way around it. There must be.

I don't know....

But I'll take a crack at it.

One possibility is that the soul enters soon after the zygote is made, but not immediately. This is not the argument I accept, but it is POSSIBLE. Because there's no way I can prove using Ancient Greek what the Bible really means when it says "Conceived." And the Bible isn't a Science textbook either.

Another possibility is that one soul "Died" even though the body did not. I have no idea how it is determined which one died, but it is possible.

But honestly, I don't know.

Interesting, I'll remember that comparison next time you advocate that people follow laws, ever

No, I think we should follow sensible laws. I never said we should follow every law, even today. Laws demanding you kill people are not reasonable laws.

I've been considering making a big book of Domy quotes, so I can accuse him of hypocrisy every seventh second..

I'd have to report you I'm afraid. On the other hand, if I've contradicted myself RECENTLY (In the last couple of months, since I doubt I buy much of what I said in April of last year) please tell me.

 

[Zack]

And the Bible isn't a Science textbook

So why do you treat it like one?

 

[GamezRule]

Because he just broke the 9th Commandment.

8th if you are Catholic/Lutheran

 

[useless]

But a foetus isn't a person...

 

[sophie]

Hey Dommy, is this a life? And does it have a soul?

 

[tycoonist]

I'd have to report you I'm afraid. On the other hand, if I've contradicted myself RECENTLY (In the last couple of months, since I doubt I buy much of what I said in April of last year) please tell me.

Go on. Report me. Nothing wrong with proving you wrong.

And your hypocrisy is rampant...


And please stop trying to explain when a soul enters a cell as if it has relation to biology. It does not. The "soul" has no physical interpretation, and this is echoed in the fact that biology is unconcerned with it.