The UU-A-Day Countdown

[Stefanskantine]

It will remain to be seen how Camel Archers play out. My first take is that they will be the MVP unique unit of the game. Critically, they don't require a resource so are therefore spammable. Your knights might be able to beat my camel archers charging in 1 on 1 combat, but how will your 2 knights do against my 15 camel archers?

Then consider the possibilities of a mobile ranged attack force. The Arabian general will be able to react to the battle and move his troops quickly to focus fire wherever it is needed. And I think focus fire is critical in 1 UPT as a "force multiplier."

Granted, you lose that hard charging flanker. But I think you gain much more.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

This is the ultimate kiter. Shoot. back up out of movement range. Shoot. back up out of movement range. ad nauseum. When the baddie is weak enough, charge in and finish it. The can work against formations and against ranged. You can use several Camel humpers... er archers against a wall of longswords. It will just take a while to bring them down.

This is a pretty good representation of the guerilla tactics used by Arabian nomads for centuries. I like this unit a lot.

 

[Ahriman]

Honestly, I think the camel archer promises to be one of the most fun units in the game. Has the potential to totally transform warfare and how you do it.

I just *really* hope the AI can use it well.

 

[ShaqFu]

I thought spearman bonus v. mounted units was 100 percent, not 50 percent?

Arioch's says it's "possibly +50%." Either way, it's a losing proposition for your camels.

 

[Lyoncet]

I think the reason the Minutemen got so much talk compared to Naresuan's Elephant is because the latter is very straightforward and the former… isn't so much (especially since there's a couple big holes in our knowledge about it). Not necessarily because we don't think it's cool. Cause it definitely is.

Onto the Camel Archer, let's just say I'm very happy to see the number of people who share my opinion on how devastatingly powerful it could be. One thing to remember, however, is that I don't think they'll be able to kite that well simply because they'll run out of room (or rather run behind your cities, which would then be defenseless, or hit an ocean) if they try to fall back ad infinitum. Rather, I think their strength is going to come from the ability to rotate them in and out of formation behind your front-line troops. So sort of like the Chu-ko-nu getting an extra attack, except with 50% greater strength and the ability to pound the same unit until it dies rather than spreading out your damage. Meanwhile, those units that did survive (probably with some really heavy damage) will have to try to break through your comparatively healthy front line to deal with the CAs, who can easily attack/retreat if there's a breach.

And after having to suffer through Saladin's Warlords/BtS Arabia, I'm really, really looking forward to this.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Something I could see them doing is moving into gap in the front line, taking a potshot at enemy archers, and moving back. (and have the hole refilled by melee units)

 

[Lyoncet]

That's a good point too, but you'd have to punch out two adjacent enemy melee troops to do that (not impossible with one Longswordsman and a few CAs, probably) since otherwise your CA will get into the hole and have its turn (and life, probably) cut short by Zones of Control.

 

[Boshi]

As other people have said, kiting is very very powerful. In the face of stupid AI, I don't think that there's any tactic that is as good. I see camel archers as being simply devastating in the hands of players against AI, but the AI probably having trouble with them and human players being able to deal with them, reducing them from being a killer to a big pain in the butt in multi-player games.

 

[TheGreatAnthony]

First off, great thread ShaqFu! I really like how you introduce each unit and the background history/possible gameplay tactics that go along with it.

Also, with the camel archer and the war chariot, you could back them up with heavy cavalry to make a normal-ish army that could move a ~2X speed. As long as the enemy doesnt have too many pikes, you could surprise the enemy and get deep into their territory the turn you DOW. With a formation of cavalry taking the place of melee and CA's/WC's being the ranged, you could blitzcrieg your way through and enemy. Even pikes might not be a problem if you can bombard them quick enough before they reach your lines.

 

[ShaqFu]

First off, great thread ShaqFu! I really like how you introduce each unit and the background history/possible gameplay tactics that go along with it.

Also, with the camel archer and the war chariot, you could back them up with heavy cavalry to make a normal-ish army that could move a ~2X speed. As long as the enemy doesnt have too many pikes, you could surprise the enemy and get deep into their territory the turn you DOW. With a formation of cavalry taking the place of melee and CA's/WC's being the ranged, you could blitzcrieg your way through and enemy. Even pikes might not be a problem if you can bombard them quick enough before they reach your lines.

Thanks!

Unfortunately, your combination of heavy cavalry and Camel Archers won't work, since the Camel Archer replaces the Knight. If you want to use a combined cavalry force, you'll either have to put up with the Horseman (at a meager 12 strength), or wait a very long time for Metallurgy and Lancers. Sadly, Metallurgy isn't anywhere near Chivalry on the tech tree (3 tiers and a totally different branch), so while an all-mounted army sounds awesome, it won't really work.

 

[Schuesseled]

a Camel Archer offer a unique way of playing with some mounted archers in the medieval era, for some cool flanking and shoot and scooot moves.

But lets talk about longbowman now:

+1 Range!

How bloomin awesome

 

[TheGreatAnthony]

Thanks!

Unfortunately, your combination of heavy cavalry and Camel Archers won't work, since the Camel Archer replaces the Knight. If you want to use a combined cavalry force, you'll either have to put up with the Horseman (at a meager 12 strength), or wait a very long time for Metallurgy and Lancers. Sadly, Metallurgy isn't anywhere near Chivalry on the tech tree (3 tiers and a totally different branch), so while an all-mounted army sounds awesome, it won't really work.

Oops, forgot about that... one might still combine CA's and lancers maybe, if you have lots left over and need to bombard the enemy, but it probably wont be a very good strategy then.

P.S. i'm not sure if the longbowman's extra range has been verified.

Edit: nvm, just checked Arioch's site

 

[MisterBarca]

P.S. i'm not sure if the longbowman's extra range has been verified.

It has been.

 

[TheGreatAnthony]

yea, I edited that in to my post

 

[Louis XXIV]

Camel Archer looks to be simply fun. Not a game changer in itself, but can certainly irritate an opponent quite well.

The extra range for the Longbow strikes me as quite useful. At a minimum, it makes a viable strategy of two rows of ranged units before the protective line, which can be quite devastating.

 

[MisterBarca]

Camel Archer looks to be simply fun. Not a game changer in itself, but can certainly irritate an opponent quite well.

The extra range for the Longbow strikes me as quite useful. At a minimum, it makes a viable strategy of two rows of ranged units before the protective line, which can be quite devastating.

I just don't see how it can be balanced in multi-player.

On the same token, I also don't see how Longbows can have a longer range than siege weapons like Catapults from a realism perspective. Yes, it's a game, but it's a historical game that needs to track reality to some degree unless doing so breaks the game.

 

[Ahriman]

well simply because they'll run out of room (or rather run behind your cities, which would then be defenseless, or hit an ocean) if they try to fall back ad infinitum

Thats the joy of this; it makes terrain really matter, and it makes "space" important. You can give up land for actual strategic advantage.

Particularly effective as a defensive weapon; whittling down incoming enemy armies.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I just don't see how it can be balanced in multi-player.

On the same token, I also don't see how Longbows can have a longer range than siege weapons like Catapults from a realism perspective. Yes, it's a game, but it's a historical game that needs to track reality to some degree unless doing so breaks the game.

The problem is this. Longbows should have a longer range than Crossbows (which had a pitiful range). Crossbows, realistically, should have a range of one. But that would make them useless, so they need to have two. This means that, in order to represent the superior range, a Longbow has to have a range of three. It doesn't work logically for the game as a whole, but, as far as bows and arrows go, it makes perfect sense.

As for balance, you can either focus on getting a land force that can break through the English melee units in order to attack the Longbow where they're vulnerable or you can focus on getting better techs in order to make the Longbow basically obsolete.

 

[MisterBarca]

The problem is this. Longbows should have a longer range than Crossbows (which had a pitiful range). Crossbows, realistically, should have a range of one. But that would make them useless, so they need to have two. This means that, in order to represent the superior range, a Longbow has to have a range of three. It doesn't work logically for the game as a whole, but, as far as bows and arrows go, it makes perfect sense.

I do not believe longbows had 50 percent greater range than crossbows. In fact, from a recollection of earlier readings, I believe the heavier crossbows out-ranged longbows.

Longbows have been greatly over-rated, in particular as a result of Crecy and Agincourt. But the French and their allies at those battles employed earlier, shorter-ranged crossbows (whereas longbow developed remained relatively static from thereon), and few of the Knights that fell to the longbows had Renaissance-style full plates that were invulnerable to longbow ejected bodkins as well.

 

[Ahriman]

Remember that you still have to have a direct line of site to the target tile.
You can only shoot over forests/jugnles if you're on a hill, and you can't shoot over hills at all (I think?).

And units only have 2 sight range, so you still need to have a spotter unit in front to be able to get 3 range.

So you're only really going to be able to use to their fullest with lots of flat land.

Gives interesting incentives to England to clearcut their forests, to maximize use of the Longbows defensively.