The UU-A-Day Countdown

[IdiotsOpposite]

I think you will find the description would read "no defensive bonuses from terrain", you will almost certainly still receive the negative -33% to defence on open terrain.

The alternative is not logical at all, and will all most certainly not be the case.

What do you mean it's not logical?

Or do you think that cavalrymen really WOULD fare better defensively in forests than in grasslands?

it's rather hard to do a cavalryman's job in forests...

 

[12agnar0k]

What do you mean it's not logical?

Or do you think that cavalrymen really WOULD fare better defensively in forests than in grasslands?

it's rather hard to do a cavalryman's job in forests...

You have failed to grasp the point.

Cavalry not receiving the -33% penalty all other units get is illogical, and it goes against their "doesn't gain defensive bonuses" disadvantage in the first place.

I didn't say anything about the rough terrain other than they should not get defensive bonuses for it. Which is what your saying I said the opposite too.

 

[ShaqFu]

Super fun unit speculation time!

Going off Arioch's site, we'll look at the Aztec Jaguar, a unit that's sure to see some usage from both human and AI Montys. This unit is a Warrior replacement, making it the earliest UU in the game, and (maybe) comes with a bonus fighting in jungle and healing after defeating an enemy.

Approaching this unit in a Civ4 mindset, it appears almost totally useless. The first ability seems unremarkable - really, who cares about jungle? - until you factor in Civ5's start bias. Whereas Civ4 was happy to drop the Aztecs in some bleak tundra, Civ5 will try and place Monty someplace tropical, to ensure that his flavor/abilities are relevant. Thus, the bonus in jungle will come into play for the Aztecs in most of their games, giving them an edge over Brutes and enemy Warriors. The second looks marginal, but whatever applies to the Immortal applies moreso here: very early units are worth their weight in gold (literally...), so getting more mileage out of them counts. Punching through a civ's first Warrior or two may sap most Stone Age armies' strength, but an Aztec rush can keep pushing and win the day (and the capital/city-state). Since armies at this time will likely only consist of 3-4 Warriors, having one more full-strength unit is the difference between staying home and conquering the (very ancient) world. The fact that the unit is a Warrior replacement shouldn't be off-putting, as Warriors have come a long way since their 2-strength weaklings in Civ4. Warriors can easily take down any pre-Classical unit, making them dangerous beyond the first few turns. The Aztec's ability to put a few together, use nearby terrain to ensure field victories, and keep their numbers up through combat make this UU a dangerous, if very early, force.

Of course, you shouldn't forget Sacrificial Captives, which might as well say "ALWAYS WAR." Take down a few enemy Warriors/Brutes, open up Honor, and grab land by 3500 BCE.

 

[CleverFool]

Warriors are indeed more useful further into the game with CiV, so that will certainly go a long ways to making Jags more useful in the long run. It suits what I think will be Monte's style as well; attacking everything that moves at the start of the game to gain an advantage with social policies to try and get a leg up before other civs have their UU's/SA's kick into gear. Having said that even with the greater usefulness of the Warrior, I'm not sure if its reign will be long enough to make a huge difference.

Having said that I'm not a huge fan of rapid early expansion, and thus the Aztec playstyle/Jag will no doubt not suit me well.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I'm not a rusher, so the Jag Warrior isn't overly useful to me. But I can see having some fun if you have jungle and like that kind of strategy.

 

[krunsh]

I think it's great what they did with the aztec. Going for war while having to aim for the ennemy city could be very fun... And being able to do i early on with the jagua should be good too.

Being at war right at the start with everyone near you just to kill barbarian and lone unit exploring so you get to give the sacrafice to the god (and get a culture advantage over other player).

I'm not much of a rush/military player, but they realy made the aztec in a way that make me want to try them out.

 

[Stefanskantine]

Definitely a good example of how they've added a lot of different "flavor" and differing playstyles with the UUs and UAs. Not my favorite playstyle as of right now, but the Aztecs will definitely be different and worth a try.

Interesting that with Monte you can do for all out early aggression AND culture simultaneously. That will make them different from all other civs in the game.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

You have failed to grasp the point.

Cavalry not receiving the -33% penalty all other units get is illogical, and it goes against their "doesn't gain defensive bonuses" disadvantage in the first place.

I didn't say anything about the rough terrain other than they should not get defensive bonuses for it. Which is what your saying I said the opposite too.

If they get a -33% in open terrain, and nothing in rough terrain, that would mean they defend rough terrain better than open terrain. Ergo, they would be better defenders of forests than of grasslands.

A better solution would be instead of receiving defensive bonuses, make them not receive the -33% in open terrain, but instead get a -33% in rough terrain.

That's just my opinion, even though it's a damned good one IMO.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

This unit's ability to heal when defeating an enemy will allow them to be decent cannon fodder in later eras.

 

[Snoopaloop]

The fact that the unit is a Warrior replacement shouldn't be off-putting, as Warriors have come a long way since their 2-strength weaklings in Civ4.

Hopefully the Jaguar is the civ5 replacement of the civ4 Inca quecha warrior rush! It was terrible seeing the jaguar be so weak in the last game.

 

[Ronojoy1917]

It doesn't fit the Aztec period of dominance in RL history, like all the other UU's seem to, but it'll make for interesting gameplay I'm sure.

 

[ShaqFu]

Sorry I'm so late on this one, but I was playing a Civ4 LAN late tonight. After stacks of Axemen still being relevant into the medieval age, I'm getting really antsy for some 1upt action...

Anyway, 10 days! We'll look at another (highly speculative) unit today, and another Civ series favorite, the French Musketeer. Sadly, it's another of the less interesting* UUs, but its ability is certainly potent - +4 strength (20) over your garden variety Musketman.

Instead of going for fancy abilities, this UU is another blunt instrument: put on battlefield, promote, crack some heads. At its time, this is the second strongest raw unit in the game, behind only Naresuan's Elephant and Lancers, and costs neither strategy (like the former) or resources (like the latter). Given its cheap power, the Musketeer makes for an excellent backbone to a Renaissance army; the extra strength put it over all but one medieval unit, making it fantastic for cleaning out tech laggards, and it provides an edge in gunpowder-on-gunpowder warfare. Any civs attempting a late medieval or mixed medieval/Renaissance invasion will find themselves up against stiff defenses - whereas Longswordsmen and Knights may tear through Musketmen, the roles are reversed with Musketeers. Ultimately, that may be this unit's greatest impact, by obsoleting the medieval trifecta of Crossbow/Knight/Longsword with a single unit. The Musketeer brings in the age of gunpowder resoundingly, with its sheer strength ending the medieval age with, well, a bang.

*Compare to Civ4, when the raw strength UUs were the most interesting ones...

 

[Blackfang]

The bonus, while not very interesting, seems powerful indeed.
Any neighbor of the french might want to push for riflemen, that are, thankfully, only two techs away.
Well, Siam, England, China, USA and Ottomans might somewhat counter the Musketeer with their Medieval and early Renaissance UUs, as might any nation with good supply of iron for longswordsmen (for that, Russia will have an easier time), but still they will be at a disadvantage.
So, a quick war for France, before the discovery of rifling, seems like a good idea.

 

[Omega124]

I think you put it quite good. France will put an end to medieval warfare as you know it. I think this is going to be the Praet of CiV. Build some up, attack your enemies, and laugh after charges of Lancers and Knights are completely stopped in their tracks. I find this humorous in a way, as the English Longbow killed the knight, which the French were so desperate to use in every single freaking battle.

 

[Schuesseled]

certainly makes it superior to the civ 4 musketeer. Also it seems to me that France will probably have the only musketman units that won't die horribly 50% of the time when tangling with longswordsman.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Well said, Shaqfu.

 

[12agnar0k]

If they get a -33% in open terrain, and nothing in rough terrain, that would mean they defend rough terrain better than open terrain. Ergo, they would be better defenders of forests than of grasslands.

A better solution would be instead of receiving defensive bonuses, make them not receive the -33% in open terrain, but instead get a -33% in rough terrain.

That's just my opinion, even though it's a damned good one IMO.

Absoultely rediclious, infact they get compared to other units 0 difference in open terrain (as it should be) and -25% in rough terrain, as it should be, so I really don't see your problem.

Will they be harder to shoot at when in rough terrain, as apposed to open terrain, yes, the trees are a targets best friend.

....

To move onto the lastest UU.

Musketeers eh?, only +4 strength to be known so far, but I wouldn't be suprised if they had another ability, just a strength increase doesn't shout finsihed to me.

Given the "all for one and one for all" musketeers slogan, (this may very well not apply to musketeers in general from a historical point), we could see the musketeers getting a bonus on flanking, thus they would get more than the normal +15% for every adjacent ally (up to +30%) that normal units get. Perhaps a +20% (up to +40%) bonus, or a +15% (up to +45%, with three adjacent allies) bonus.

That would be my guess at what ability they could get on top of the +4 strength, although I admit this is baseless assumption only thought up because of the TV show/movie The Three Musketeers , but its better than nothing.

 

[krunsh]

I think it's weird that they made them ressource free since in reality, Musketeers were trained in very limited number as an elite force for special mission or support in important battle.

Unless they don't mean the special mosketeers ordered by louis XIII or XIV (not sure anymore.).

Anyway, france seems fun to play since there special ability cover the start of the game and there special unit the later game.

 

[St. Willibrord]

Well, I think they're just using musketeers as a recognizable symbol to represent the general quality of French infantry in the period, just as they previously used Praetorians (a unit that was extremely limited and generally not at all military effective) to represent the Roman legions. I'm a little worried that the French might suffer from the same problem they had in Civ IV: there was little reason to hang around the musketman unit tier with riflemen so close, so musketmen had a very short window of usefulness. However, it may be that the jump in quality from musketman to rifleman in Civ V is less drastic, meaning that musketeers can hang around with their beastly strength bonus (I like strength bonus special abilities; nothing quite like a good power game on the battlefield).

 

[bjbrains]

Musketeers look like they'll be hugely powerful in their time period: Remember that they're actually cheaper than longswordsmen/Knights/Trebuchets! So you get a powerful all purpose unit that is easier to mass produce than other units.

Another note: rifling may be "only two techs away", but that means a ton in Civ 5's tech progression. Based on the tech tree that was posted, researching metallurgy/rifling would take about 3.5 times as long as gunpowder itself. And since you'll probably be prioritizing gunpowder more than other civs, you should have a good amount of time to use the unit in. I mean, the first unit that has more strength is the lancer, which obviously is more expensive, needs horses, and would die on any counterattack. So yea, a civ facing France is going to have to be very careful once the medieval age comes to its end, and prepare: The best counter I can see is some combination of longswordsmen/knights to take hits, and trebuchets to weaken the attacking musketeers.